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Ukraine V

ks.234 said:
That you constrain entire nations to your own particular world view and contrast them with other national identities, again based on your own perceptions, is ample demonstration of how little you understand about how individuals think.
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We make our future, but we can't remake our past. The main diff between Poles and French re Russia is that Poland experienced RW and France didn't.

Stop lashing out and take advantage of this learning opportunity.
 
DimitryZ said:
We make our future, but we can't remake our past. The main diff between Poles and French re Russia is that Poland experienced RW and France didn't.

Stop lashing out and take advantage of this learning opportunity.
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I’m only commenting on you making things up again. You have not provided a learning experience, just invention followed by distraction
 
Barrymagrec said:
Hari.
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Seldon

2015-08-21-1440138242-5865807-bazingasheldon-thumb.jpg
 
ks.234 said:
I’m only commenting on you making things up again. You have not provided a learning experience, just invention followed by distraction
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That's the problem right there - those with experience can never get those without to listen and understand.

What we need is a "me too" movement for those who experienced RW.
 
DimitryZ said:
The main diff between Poles and French re Russia is that Poland experienced RW and France didn't.
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Why would? Why would France, Italy, Spain or Germany bother?

Unless they or a military alliance they belong to attack Russia. Same goes for a huge majority of Europe. The problem are new NATO members on the borders of Russia that used to be a part of the Soviet pact and it can't be more obvious.
 
The problem if Putin succeeds in destroying Ukraine (and sovereign Ukranian identity) is that he will be responsible for placing Russia on the borders of NATO member states 'and it can't be more obvious'.

Just how many more ways are you going to spin this anubisgrau?

John
 
Probably because they do not want anymore a border with Russia again, like it was for a 50 years some time back.
Also, look at the world map. Europe is so small in comparison. And it is not some small, local, civic conflict. Not to care what is going on few hundred kilometres away would be strange.
They did not care in 2014, look where it ended.
 
Three empires fall. A wave of new democratic nation-states are created in the power vacuum between those old empires. Soon, they begin to worry that the old empires might rise again, only to gobble them back up, so they look to form an alliance. But their democracies start to falter and the plans for an alliance fall apart. Twenty-five years later, two of the old empires are back and fight each other in a terrible war. Those young states are caught in between, and are replaced by puppets of the victorious empire of the new war. They had their chance at lasting independence but failed to take it.

Nearly fifty years pass. The old victorious empire falls and those same small countries get to try again. New democratic nation-states are formed once more, but this time they are determined not to let history repeat itself. As luck would have it, there is an existing defensive alliance they can join, and they waste no time signing up, knowing that soon, the old empire will try to reassert its control over them.
 
ks.234 said:
Putin may well be a criminal psychopath, but why was he not considered a criminal psychopath when he invaded Georgia? And if invasion is the measure of criminality, why not other invaders, US presidents Eisenhower/JFK for Cuba? Nixon for Chile? Regan for Grenada? Bush for Afghanistan? Blair for Iraq? And why, even after his invasion of Georgia and Crimea, did Putin still receive the admiration of a US president?
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While we’re what-abouting, strange how the Korean War is never mentioned by certain people. North supported by Soviet Union and China. South supported USA. We all know which Korea everyone would prefer to live in today and which Korea has made a positive contribution to the world.
 
Plink said:
While we’re what-abouting, strange how the Korean War is never mentioned by certain people. North supported by Soviet Union and China. South supported USA. We all know which Korea everyone would prefer to live in today and which Korea has made a positive contribution to the world.
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And your point is?
 
ks.234 said:
And your point is?
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I think your general point is relativism and the democracies of the world are just as authoritarian, also generate conflicts, and so in the context of the thread, who cares if Russia wins this war. Even our leaders in these countries haven’t had a problem with the likes of Putin. Classic Chomsky stuff.

The problem with this thinking is twofold. We have seen generations of evidence of the problems of the authoritarian regimes both on generating conflicts and in poor living conditions for their citizens both human rights and economic. It’s also evidenced by poor in migration to these countries. South Korea is one of the best recent opposite examples here both in being a peaceful citizen of the world (unlike their brothers) and in economic/human rights progress. Imagine a Korea had the Russia China backed north won instead of the “stalemate”. You want to be intellectually honest then you must address this.

Second, western leaders have always had problems with the authoritarian regimes but diplomacy and openness in trade and other relations is seen as a strategy to open them up to economic progress and increased human rights and maybe someday electoral freedoms. The pipeline is a good example. We now know that such a long term strategy can be flawed.

Btw, from what I have seen here, nobody denies the flaws of a UK, USA, Germany, EU, etc…most here would agree lots of room for improvement so I really don’t get what your point is…particularly in the context of this thread.
 
gints said:
Probably because they do not want anymore a border with Russia again, like it was for a 50 years some time back.
Also, look at the world map. Europe is so small in comparison. And it is not some small, local, civic conflict. Not to care what is going on few hundred kilometres away would be strange.
They did not care in 2014, look where it ended.
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Better don't look on the world map, you gonna get depressed. A majority of the world is not on your side anyway.
 
anubisgrau said:
Why would? Why would France, Italy, Spain or Germany bother?

Unless they or a military alliance they belong to attack Russia. Same goes for a huge majority of Europe. The problem are new NATO members on the borders of Russia that used to be a part of the Soviet pact and it can't be more obvious.
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They are no longer part of the "Soviet Pact" and above is an RPTV talking point!
anubisgrau said:
Better don't look on the world map, you gonna get depressed. A majority of the world is not on your side anyway.
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Another RPTV talking point!

RPTV often shows China and India (colored Russia's side on the map), counts up population and declares word for word what you just said.

I am really beginning to wonder...
 
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anubisgrau said:
Better don't look on the world map, you gonna get depressed. A majority of the world is not on your side anyway.
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That was a remark why European countries care, and not how much of world is on my side. I have no illusions that for many in world this is local conflict. But this is not local for Europa and it would be really strange for biggest European countries to ignore it. Even your Serbia did not ignore it from your own words.
 
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