advertisement


Ukraine V

gints said:
Germany do not want to do anything with past.... Russia is all about past...
It has to clash one way or another, no way it can coexist in this small place Europa.
Click to expand...
One radical way for Germany to resolve its indecision is to provide Leopards and to paint them in full WW2 era Vermacht panzer Nazi colors, latter strictly for psychological effect. :)
 
DimitryZ said:
One radical way for Germany to resolve its indecision is to provide Leopards and to paint them in full WW2 era Vermacht panzer Nazi colors, latter strictly for psychological effect. :)
Click to expand...
I wonder if that’s the underlying reason for German reluctance- what German tanks symbolise.
 
By that thinking maybe that is real reason why Poland would be happy to "get rid off" Germans tanks?
Or maybe deep down Germany still see Ukraine as Russia?
That quilt what they feeling over past may well be even encouraging for Russia to do what they started, they not afraid and they counted on no reaction from them. While Germany feel quilty, Russia made victory over Germany their main theme for today, celebration of victory is the biggest celebration of year. They are not shy to constantly remind every year with great pride that it is they who beat Germany. Germany was only country where local russians openly demonstrated their support of invasion.
Germany is a bit indecisive at moment, but they gave lot of weapons at end, two step forward, one step back. They will get to tanks eventually. They will get out of Russia pocket eventually.
 
A lot of tank talk in the media recently but I wouldn’t want to be in one given the advantage hand held launchers and aircraft borne weapons such as Brimstone have. Both Gulf wars and the fate of Russian tanks during the advance on Kiev are good examples of this.
 
anubisgrau said:
Germany has nothing to do with these people dying. Hard to grasp but someone has to say.

Leave Germany alone and be happy that you (along with the US) made it as far from any military involvement as they can be. Your politics ain't the brightest but once again, Germany shouldn't get involved in any wars never ever again.
Click to expand...

Go to social media and read what people think about biggest economy in Europe support to Ukraine. Starting with 5000 helmets they offered at the begining, when Poland and Czech were about to send hundreds of tanks. You defending strongest guy at school who is watching weak guy beaten by a bully, and you say he should go to peace protest instead. There is no logic behind it, just self interest.
 
Yes, I recall reading something that said the survival time for tank crews in a hot war nowadays was estimated at hours. They do feel like a technology whose usefulness has passed.

Which is not to say they won’t do a job for Ukraine, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the next generation of battle tank wasn’t some form of drone.
 
One big difference to survive in tanks that in Russian tank you are together with ammunition, in German or American your are seperated.
 
Spraggons Den said:
A lot of tank talk in the media recently but I wouldn’t want to be in one given the advantage hand held launchers and aircraft borne weapons such as Brimstone have. Both Gulf wars and the fate of Russian tanks during the advance on Kiev are good examples of this.
Click to expand...
If Ukraine want tanks, Germany should give them tanks. End of.

If Putin's propaganda is getting to you, may I prescribe Simon Tisdall's latest for The Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...for-all-of-us-now-europe-must-fight-putin-too

If that doesn't stiffen your moral fibre, I don't know what will.
 
The use of tactical nukes, rapidly followed by the destruction of all of Europe and Western Russia is getting more and more likely.
The majority of the Russian warheads are aimed at Europe, not the US
 
Are these Leopards any good? I only ask in the context of a story I ready a few years ago that attempted to highlight Ursula von der Leyen’s apparent uselessness when she became big cheese at the European Commission. It was along the lines of when she was German defence minister, Germany didn’t have a single serviceable tank they could call upon. That suggested to me a very relaxed attitude to defence or they’re frail.
(apologies if this is already covered - I only read the thread occasionally)
 
Putin has little popular support at home and he knows that going 'nuclear' would see ,Moscow vapourised. Add in that the reliability and effectiveness of Russian nukes is as questionable as that of their conventional stuff and his threats seem increasingly hollow.
 
Spraggons Den said:
A lot of tank talk in the media recently but I wouldn’t want to be in one given the advantage hand held launchers and aircraft borne weapons such as Brimstone have. Both Gulf wars and the fate of Russian tanks during the advance on Kiev are good examples of this.
Click to expand...

^This. It's more about messaging than military advantage. NATO member states have provided a lot of defensive equipment to Ukraine, now it's beginning to supply an item of materiel that is predominantly used for offensive action. That is a clear message to Moscow.

That carries a risk of escalating Russian effort and spill-over into neighbouring NATO states; some NATO states will take the risk (Poland, unsurprisingly) and others, won't. IMHO, German reticence to allow Leopard 2s to go to Ukraine is a fear of escalation, the sight of German tanks rumbling down Ukrainian roads again and a need to have access to cheap energy when this is over.
 
Seeker_UK said:
IMHO, German reticence to allow Leopard 2s to go to Ukraine is a fear of escalation, the sight of German tanks rumbling down Ukrainian roads again and a need to have access to cheap energy when this is over.
Click to expand...
I could understand the concern about German tanks in Ukraine, but would have thought that even the most devoted Ostpolitik followers would have figured out by now that Russian gas is not coming back to Germany in the near to medium term future. Germany needs a new energy policy to replace its failed reliance on Russian gas.
 
PsB said:
I could understand the concern about German tanks in Ukraine, but would have thought that even the most devoted Ostpolitik followers would have figured out by now that Russian gas is not coming back to Germany in the near to medium term future. Germany needs a new energy policy to replace its failed reliance on Russian gas.
Click to expand...

Short to medium term, they do, however there are very long-term considerations at play as well; when Putin carks it, the whole situation could change. Whether Leopard 2s would make the difference to gas vs no gas from Russia, I'm not sure, but if Herr Scholz is a risk averse man, then why risk it?
 
Seeker_UK said:
Short to medium term, they do, however there are very long-term considerations at play as well; when Putin carks it, the whole situation could change. Whether Leopard 2s would make the difference to gas vs no gas from Russia, I'm not sure, but if Herr Scholz is a risk averse man, then why risk it?
Click to expand...
It could change after Putin, but would you base your energy policy on him being replaced by a better leader?
 
Seeker_UK said:
^This. It's more about messaging than military advantage. NATO member states have provided a lot of defensive equipment to Ukraine, now it's beginning to supply an item of materiel that is predominantly used for offensive action. That is a clear message to Moscow.

That carries a risk of escalating Russian effort and spill-over into neighbouring NATO states; some NATO states will take the risk (Poland, unsurprisingly) and others, won't. IMHO, German reticence to allow Leopard 2s to go to Ukraine is a fear of escalation, the sight of German tanks rumbling down Ukrainian roads again and a need to have access to cheap energy when this is over.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a sober appraisal to me. My assumption is that Germany is thinking of its own national interest - short, medium and long term. There may well be other factors in play (e.g. a desire not to deplete its own military capability). For all the noise, here and elsewhere, very few people will be privy to all the factors being weighed up.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


advertisement


Back
Top