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Ukraine V

FireMoon said:
As has been pointed out numerous places elsewhere. The British shouting the odds about blowing up dams is irony on a different level.
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Have you not considered the inconsistency in this analogy?

That's quite apart from the obvious fact that someone of British nationality is not responsible for or necessarily in agreement with actions taken by other British people a full lifetime ago.
 
kensalriser said:
In other words, a traditional protection racket.
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I think Wagner certainly resemble an organised crime syndicate in many ways but the degree to which they're a way for the Kremlin to effectively seize foreign resources at gun point also draws parallels for me with organisations from Europe's days of empire like the East India Company. The doc is a real eye opener.
 
awkwardbydesign said:
History.
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I'd agree. I don't really see many parallels elsewhere in the world right now but I can see similarities with c18th European colonialism with the private armies of corporations effectively running overseas countries.

Outside of Ukraine Wagner's business has shifted from supplying mercenaries to running oil and gas extraction, gold mines, timber.
 
"Russia's most powerful mercenary said on Sunday that his Wagner fighters would not sign any contracts with the Russian defence ministry, hours after the minister, Sergei Shoigu, sought to bring volunteer detachments under its sway. He said Wagner was integrated into the overall system and completely subordinate to the interests of Russia, but that its highly efficient command structure would be damaged by reporting to Shoigu." (Twitter).
 
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Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
It’s whataboutery though, isn’t it? To argue that what Russia is doing today is similar to what Britain did 2-300 years ago.
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My point in drawing parallels (and I did think as I typed that perhaps I could have been clearer..) is that history can up us understand what's going on - not to excuse it any more than I would seek to excuse c18th colonialism.

The idea that British people aren't allowed to be appalled by wholesale murder, rape and torture in the pursuit of natural resources because of something a British government did 300 years ago is obviously absurd.
 
"China denies supplying armored vehicles and weapons to Kadyrov's troops. The Chinese Foreign Ministry said that they continue to adhere to the position of peaceful dialogue in what they call 'the Ukrainian issue'." (Twitter).

Part of the peace plan, no doubt.

PS From Wiki re: the start of Whataboutery.

"I would not suggest such a thing were it not for the Whatabouts. These are the people who answer every condemnation of the Provisional I.R.A. with an argument to prove the greater immorality of the "enemy", and therefore the justice of the Provisionals' cause: "What about Bloody Sunday, internment, torture, force-feeding, army intimidation?". Every call to stop is answered in the same way: "What about the Treaty of Limerick; the Anglo-Irish treaty of 1921; Lenadoon?". Neither is the Church immune: "The Catholic Church has never supported the national cause. What about Papal sanction for the Norman invasion; condemnation of the Fenians by Moriarty; Parnell?"

— Sean O'Conaill, "Letter to Editor", The Irish Times, 30 Jan 1974
 
No need for any of us to worry about the nuclear plant at Zaporizhzhia running out of cooling water and going bang because according to the Graun:

“The Belarusian president, Alexander Lukashenko, says he won’t hesitate to use Russian tactical nuclear weapons if faced with an act of aggression (by Ukraine).”
 
"Russia seems to deny passage through the frontlines and safety guarantees for the UN personnel. They are deliberately targeting and killing rescue and support teams on the Ukrainian side." (Twitter)
 
not sure if it is allowed but lets try


https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/22/politics/ukraine-counteroffensive-western-assessment/index.html



In its early phases, Ukraine’s counteroffensive is having less success and Russian forces are showing more competence than western assessments expected, two western officials and a senior US military official tell CNN.

The counteroffensive is “not meeting expectations on any front,” one of the officials said.

According to the Western assessments, Russian lines of defense have been proving well-fortified, making it difficult for Ukrainian forces to breach them. In addition, Russian forces have had success bogging down Ukrainian armor with missile attacks and mines and have been deploying air power more effectively.
 
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