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Ukraine V

Tony L said:
I’ve been increasingly puzzled over recent weeks by anti-Ukraine comments from some on the furthest fringes of the left on Twitter etc. I don’t get it as to my eyes Putin is clearly a monster; a brutal far-right gangster dictator who murders or imprisons political opposition, journalists etc, and has zero respect for human rights and civil liberties. He implements his racism and homophobia with extraordinary brutality. I understand why the Trump-right like and support this as Putin shares their extremist Christian white supremacist values, plus the amount of Russian money sloshing around in GOP (and UK Tory) circles. The far left support I do not get at all. Some, e.g. Chomsky, who is usually fairly credible, seem to have been consistently wrong on this and appear closer to the Trump/GOP perspective albeit with conflicting “logic”. I don’t get it at all. I found this article on Foreign Policy, which is a site I know nothing about, but I’m curious what others here can shine on this one? It’s clearly a ‘tankie’ thing, but even then it defies logic.
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The Tankies' ideological gymnastics are set out quite clearly and explicitly here. Russia a humble regional power, with that region extending to the Oder.
 
Tony L said:
I’ve been increasingly puzzled over recent weeks by anti-Ukraine comments from some on the furthest fringes of the left on Twitter etc. I don’t get it as to my eyes Putin is clearly a monster; a brutal far-right gangster dictator who murders or imprisons political opposition, journalists etc, and has zero respect for human rights and civil liberties. He implements his racism and homophobia with extraordinary brutality. I understand why the Trump-right like and support this as Putin shares their extremist Christian white supremacist values, plus the amount of Russian money sloshing around in GOP (and UK Tory) circles. The far left support I do not get at all. Some, e.g. Chomsky, who is usually fairly credible, seem to have been consistently wrong on this and appear closer to the Trump/GOP perspective albeit with conflicting “logic”. I don’t get it at all. I found this article on Foreign Policy, which is a site I know nothing about, but I’m curious what others here can shine on this one? It’s clearly a ‘tankie’ thing, but even then it defies logic.
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As far as Chomsky is concerned, this guy is defintiely worth a listen. Some of the comments below the video are worth reading too.

 
gustav_errata said:
I'm just setting the record straight but I'm happy to oblige any sense of vindication that it gives you. I agree that none of the points you raised are controversial. I just question the motivation for raising them and will call it out when I see it.
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Fair enough. The main issue I have is when motives are imputed that simply aren't there (e.g. Putin apologist). Most people I know on the left have consistently criticised Putin as an autocrat and a thug, long before it became fashionable to do so.
 
Ward said:
Kremlin accuse Kiev regime of attempted assassination of President Putin even though he apparently wasn't home when two drones were brought down over the city.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65471904
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The immediate question is - how on earth did two (apparent) drones get to within a few metres of one of the most highly guarded buildings on the planet?
Or were the defences switched off at the time?
It's not entirely apparent either as to just how they were taken down - didnt appear to be a missile doing the job (that would have been dangerous as it was so close to the building) & are they allowed to shoot AA munitions when aiming at the Kremlin?
 
Sonority said:
The immediate question is - how on earth did two (apparent) drones get to within a few metres of one of the most highly guarded buildings on the planet?
Or were the defences switched off at the time?
It's not entirely apparent either as to just how they were taken down - didnt appear to be a missile doing the job (that would have been dangerous as it was so close to the building) & are they allowed to shoot AA munitions when aiming at the Kremlin?
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What I find bizarre is the two guys on the ladder half way up the dome. Perhaps they downed the drone with a long pole..?
 
At what point will the Russians realise that when they openly & consistently tell lies, no one will believe them when they need to disprove another lie?
 
droodzilla said:
At the end of the day, the US is not fighting for liberal values and Western civilization; it is looking after its own interests. I doubt that those include a protracted and even bloodier war at the edge of Western Europe.
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That's the crux of your mistaken position. You present above as a self evident fact, when it's totally not. There are times when US interest actually involves fighting for liberal values - and your inability to actually *imagine* such a scenario is a clear proof of both intellectual laziness (or inertia) and a heavy leftist bias you don't even notice.

The actual explanation is that you spent a lifetime convinced that US is a negative, malignant presence on this planet and everything we do simply *must* have an evil motive, even if one isn't immediately clear. Contrast that with your position on USSR and it's reincarnated version - it went bad because they got communism wrong - i.e., good motives, but bad execution. An entity like that probably has some rational reasons for doing bad things - like say being really afraid of imperialist America, who as we all *know,* have been trying to *dismember* Russia since forever.

There is a simple reason that the Left's support of Ukraine is so lukewarm or lukecold - it simply can't place itself into an alliance with the US. It's an automatically limiting position.
 
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raysablade said:
The Tankies' ideological gymnastics are set out quite clearly and explicitly here. Russia a humble regional power, with that region extending to the Oder.
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I thought that was a spoof composed by Len Spart in Neasden Borough Library when I started reading it. Had to look up ‘Posadists’:

“The Posadists began quarrelling with the majority of the ISFI in 1959 over the question of nuclear war with Posadas being a proponent as, he claimed, it would destroy capitalism and clear the way for socialism.[6]”.

And yes, “Hands Off Russia!”.
 
PTWild said:
What I find bizarre is the two guys on the ladder half way up the dome. Perhaps they downed the drone with a long pole..?
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Whoever sent that drone and for whatever reason, I'm convinced that based on the tiny explosion, the purpose of the drone was *not* to assassinate Putin or anyone else for that matter. If Ukraine or someone friendly to Ukraine is behind it, the most likely reason seems to be humiliation. Russia have built up air defences in Moscow for months now and still two slow drones make it all the way to the Kremlin?

It could possibly also be a false flag operation to for example excuse Putin's absence from the V-day parade on the 9th .. let's see what happens with that.
 
Sonority said:
It's not entirely apparent either as to just how they were taken down - didnt appear to be a missile doing the job (that would have been dangerous as it was so close to the building) & are they allowed to shoot AA munitions when aiming at the Kremlin?
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This was what I was wondering. Assuming this is a real event, it looks more like the drone blew itself up rather than being downed, and the size of the explosion was pretty small, more like a decent firework than something designed to penetrate a building. It looks staged. The camera work is odd. It's clearly not a fixed CCTV camera as it moves around a bit, but why would you just happen to be shooting pictures of an empty scene, from an ideal vantage point to capture that event, in the middle of the night? And it's very convenient that it blew up right in shot, rather than out of line of sight.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
This was what I was wondering. Assuming this is a real event, it looks more like the drone blew itself up rather than being downed, and the size of the explosion was pretty small, more like a decent firework than something designed to penetrate a building. It looks staged. The camera work is odd. It's clearly not a fixed CCTV camera as it moves around a bit, but why would you just happen to be shooting pictures of an empty scene, from an ideal vantage point to capture that event, in the middle of the night? And it's very convenient that it blew up right in shot, rather than out of line of sight.
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in addition, why were there two people filmed climbing up the roof of the building at the time of the explosion?
 
Putin has form staging attacks and attributing to opposition. Surprised he didn't murder a few Russians to add credibility this time.
 
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