Ukraine V

[DonQuixote99]

C'mon, who had a motive and opportunity to do it besides the US? Only other possibility is Russia wanted to punish Germany by cutting them off, but with deniability that they were doing it. But punishment works poorly if it's no one says 'I'm hereby punishing your for this bad thing you did!' And the opportunity cost of actually wrecking the pipeline would actually outweigh any short-term advantage for them, I'd think. As a guy on the internet, I totally endorse the 'US did it' theory!

 

[gints]

Gas supply on NS1 was already cut by Russia itself before and NS2 was not sertificied yet anyway. And one of NS2 pipes was not touched. A plenty space for any speculations.

 

[notaclue]

If I remember correctly, the Russian way to make Europe an offer it couldn't refuse was to announce some unspecified maintenance and stop the gas, then restart it as needed (this sort of thing). That was enough. Actually blowing the thing up was an unnecessarily realistic scenario from the Russian point of view.

Also fits with the Truss text. Some might say that this was Russian propaganda, as the UK would never allow someone so careless and incompetent to become Prime Minister and let this leak. On the other hand...

 

[palindrome]

C'mon, who had a motive and opportunity to do it besides the US? Only other possibility is Russia wanted to cut punish Germany by cutting them off, but with deniability that they were doing it. But punishment works poorly if it's no one says 'I'm hereby punishing your for this bad thing you did!' And the opportunity cost of actually wrecking the pipeline would actually outweigh any short-term advantage for them, I'd think. As a guy on the internet, I totally endorse the 'US did it' theory!

And. . . from droodzilla,

'Dude [sic], Biden said he would put an end to NS2 while standing right next to Chancellor Scholz.

Hardly the words of someone who is overly concerned about US-Europe relations*.

In any case. we're talking specifically about US-Germany relations, where there have been tensions in the past, not least about - you guessed it - NS2.

Biden said he would put an end to NS2, and NS2 was, indeed put an end to (by someone). To coin a phrase: we came, we saw, he died?'

- - - -

With all due respect @droodzilla & @DonQuixote99, my post #2757:

'However, I can see how Russia, fully aware of Biden's publicly-made sentiments, could utilise the destruction of NS2 to drive a wedge between Germany and the US, and within NATO itself, if the US were to be blamed.'

Doesn't mean I'm right, but mere BOTI's hereabouts don't seem to want to entertain the point above, instead opting for - 'Biden did not look like he was bluffing. . .' and 'The knowing smile. . .' which appears to have sealed Biden's fate.

John

 

[notaclue]

And. . . from droodzilla,

'Dude [sic], Biden said he would put an end to NS2 while standing right next to Chancellor Scholz.

Hardly the words of someone who is overly concerned about US-Europe relations*.

In any case. we're talking specifically about US-Germany relations, where there have been tensions in the past, not least about - you guessed it - NS2.

Biden said he would put an end to NS2, and NS2 was, indeed put an end to (by someone). To coin a phrase: we came, we saw, he died?'

- - - -

With all due respect @droodzilla & @DonQuixote99, my post #2757:

'However, I can see how Russia, fully aware of Biden's publicly-made sentiments, could utilise the destruction of NS2 to drive a wedge between Germany and the US, and within NATO itself, if the US were to be blamed.'

Doesn't mean I'm right, but mere BOTI's hereabouts don't seem to want to entertain the point above, instead opting for - 'Biden did not look like he was bluffing. . .' and 'The knowing smile. . .' which appears to have sealed Biden's fate.

John

I certainly don't discount that Russia could have done it. Not just for bad relations within NATO. Perhaps more to create an energy crisis in Europe ahead of the winter. But if you could find an actual video of Putin literally promising he will blow it up and pretend it was the US, then this would help your case. There doesn't have to be a knowing smile at the end of Putin's promise. Though, again, this would help your case...

 

[palindrome]

Finding an actual video of a psychopathic megalomaniac promising anything that would then be blamed on another, would not help my case, Your Honour.

Witnesses for the defence are shtum.

John

 

[anubisgrau]

Why would Russia cut a steady source of much needed income during the war? Germany was a solid buyer of their gas for decades and they would continue to do so if there was no such a pressure from so-called "allies".

The States knew whom they are dealing with. Even today, one year into the war, it's only Greens they trust, no other political power in Germany. And for a good reason.

 

[Plink]

We don't know who did it. We are also merely blokes on the Internet... But Biden didn't merely "declare" they "can" do it. He promised they would be able to do it and said they "will bring an end to it".

Don't forget that it was widely expected at the start of the war that Russia would have suffered a lot more economically. Doesn't appear to have happened. The Russian economy is now predicted to grow more than the UK's! I think that may well be why the US decided to act when it did. To do some more economic damage.

again with the silly comparisons. do the math. an economy that is twice the size with half the people grows half the rate as the other economy, which is nearly the twice smaller with double the people and dominated by oligarchs. which one is doing better and would be better at funding war? geez.

 

[notaclue]

again with the silly comparisons. do the math. an economy that is twice the size with half the people grows half the rate as the other economy, which is nearly the twice smaller with double the people and dominated by oligarchs. which one is doing better and would be better at funding war? geez.

I'm not sure I understand your point (as in, I literally don't quite understand...), but for clarity, it is the IMF that made the economic growth predictions https://www.imf.org/-/media/Files/Publications/WEO/2023/Update/January/English/text.ashx

I'm guessing they have 'done the math', though please do let them know if they have something wrong. You'll find their contact details on the IMF website.

 

[anubisgrau]

The real question that would remove any doubts about who destroyed NS2 is: what would be Russian economy performance with Germans allowed to buy their gas.....

Not to mention who it really made so happy about? I hoped people didn't pee their pants on both merits: Russian can't earn and Germans are screwed up.

I mean this is not WW3, this is very much an extension of WW2 in many ways....

 

[DimitryZ]

I certainly don't discount that Russia could have done it. Not just for bad relations within NATO. Perhaps more to create an energy crisis in Europe ahead of the winter. But if you could find an actual video of Putin literally promising he will blow it up and pretend it was the US, then this would help your case. There doesn't have to be a knowing smile at the end of Putin's promise. Though, again, this would help your case...

Biden never said US will "blow up" pipelines. He said NORD2 will not become operational AND IT DIDN'T - legally and peacefully - European money was withdrawn, the company went bankrupt and the project was rolled up. It was dead an buried - no need to blow anything up.

Russia greatly reduced any gas pumped through Nord1, so there was no need for US to blow that up either.

It's honestly sad to see European leftists become animated and happy when Putin injects anti-US propaganda into your social feeds. You immediately jump from "really?" to "for sure" - stuttering Biden has "said so himself."

I will venture a guess you live in a safe European country and never even consider that a bomb or a missile can land on your street. If and when it does, your mostly armless government will call hated Biden and beg him to help you free yourselves from aggression.

When you will say Putin is weak and his armies won't reach your country, keep in mind that drunk, sick and emaciated Russian soldiers will still outgun you with your kitchen butter knife and your three man army.

It's not the nonexistent European "rapid reaction" forces that were mobilized to Romania, ready to deter Russian aggression in your lands - it's American 101st airborne division - and if need be, those American men and women will engage RF and will fight and die - for you, goofballs and your countries. Do you believe that those mostly young men and women, with families and children back home, want to be in Europe, prepared to die in yet another ****ing European war?

And if even now you feel that you are already safe, your countries should leave NATO immediately, freeing us from our treaty obligations to defend your sorry asses. Your defenseless lands will be easy trophies for RF - but don't you worry - we will totally send you blankets and MREs - but not weapons, since we wouldn't want any further escalation with Russia on your account, would we?

 

[gints]

Yes, individually countries are not so strong to dismiss russian threaths. Look at the scale of this war. There is about 300 000 russian army inside Ukraine and about 200 000 more preparing next to border. German army about 62 000, Poland army about 150 000.

 

[notaclue]

Biden never said US will "blow up" pipelines. He said NORD2 will not become operational AND IT DIDN'T - legally and peacefully - European money was withdrawn, the company went bankrupt and the project was rolled up. It was dead an buried - no need to blow anything up.

Russia greatly reduced any gas pumped through Nord1, so there was no need for US to blow that up either.

It's honestly sad to see European leftists become animated and happy when Putin injects anti-US propaganda into your social feeds. You immediately jump from "really?" to "for sure" - stuttering Biden has "said so himself."

I will venture a guess you live in a safe European country and never even consider that a bomb or a missile can land on your street. If and when it does, your mostly armless government will call hated Biden and beg him to help you free yourselves from aggression.

When you will say Putin is weak and his armies won't reach your country, keep in mind that drunk, sick and emaciated Russian soldiers will still outgun you with your kitchen butter knife and your three man army.

It's not the nonexistent European "rapid reaction" forces that were mobilized to Romania, ready to deter Russian aggression in your lands - it's American 101st airborne division - and if need be, those American men and women will engage RF and will fight and die - for you, goofballs and your countries. Do you believe that those mostly young men and women, with families and children back home, want to be in Europe, prepared to die in yet another ****ing European war?

And if even now you feel that you are already safe, your countries should leave NATO immediately, freeing us from our treaty obligations to defend your sorry asses. Your defenseless lands will be easy trophies for RF - but don't you worry - we will totally send you blankets and MREs - but not weapons, since we wouldn't want any further escalation with Russia on your account, would we?

See also Nuland's reaction. "I am, and I think the administration is, very gratified to know that Nord Stream 2 is now, as you like to say, a hunk of metal at the bottom of the sea."

Where was the concern that it would "further cut gas supplies to our European allies in the middle of the winter" as you previously claimed? Nuland was very pleased. Perhaps the US wanted to put it out of action fully? So that those European goofballs had no chance to buy more gas.

The rest of your post is not relevant. Though I note Europeans are goofballs with butter knives. Russians are sick and drunk. Americans are the selfless heroes. Very Hollywood.

 

[gints]

Probably half of Europien countries did not wanted NS2 become operational, Baltic was very clear against it as it saw it as russian weapon against europa in first place, not so much as gas supply.

 

[PsB]

I don't think we'll find out who blew up NS1 and 2 for a very long time. The Swedish, Danish and German teams that examined the wreckage haven't released any findings. One could make a plausible case for either Russia, the US or some other state actors having carried out and/or instigated the operation.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

I don't think we'll find out who blew up NS1 and 2 for a very long time. The Swedish, Danish and German teams that examined the wreckage haven't released any findings. One could make a plausible case for either Russia, the US or some other state actors having carried out and/or instigated the operation.

Yes, indeed. It also occurs to me that, if it was the US wot dunnit, they might have had the tacit approval of Germany to do so. Germany was, as we know, very reluctant to stop buying gas from Russia, because of the domestic hardship it risked causing. This would have put considerable political pressure on the ruling parties. This way they weren't faced with that difficulty, and could accede to NATO allies' desires for economic sanctions, while sidestepping any internal pressure to keep taking the gas.

 

[PsB]

Yes, indeed. It also occurs to me that, if it was the US wot dunnit, they might have had the tacit approval of Germany to do so. Germany was, as we know, very reluctant to stop buying gas from Russia, because of the domestic hardship it risked causing. This would have put considerable political pressure on the ruling parties. This way they weren't faced with that difficulty, and could accede to NATO allies' desires for economic sanctions, while sidestepping any internal pressure to keep taking the gas.

It's possible, although the Russians had previously done their bit to help by turning the tap off on NS1.

 

[Spraggons Den]

Biden never said US will "blow up" pipelines. He said NORD2 will not become operational AND IT DIDN'T - legally and peacefully - European money was withdrawn, the company went bankrupt and the project was rolled up. It was dead an buried - no need to blow anything up.

Russia greatly reduced any gas pumped through Nord1, so there was no need for US to blow that up either.

It's honestly sad to see European leftists become animated and happy when Putin injects anti-US propaganda into your social feeds. You immediately jump from "really?" to "for sure" - stuttering Biden has "said so himself."

I will venture a guess you live in a safe European country and never even consider that a bomb or a missile can land on your street. If and when it does, your mostly armless government will call hated Biden and beg him to help you free yourselves from aggression.

When you will say Putin is weak and his armies won't reach your country, keep in mind that drunk, sick and emaciated Russian soldiers will still outgun you with your kitchen butter knife and your three man army.

It's not the nonexistent European "rapid reaction" forces that were mobilized to Romania, ready to deter Russian aggression in your lands - it's American 101st airborne division - and if need be, those American men and women will engage RF and will fight and die - for you, goofballs and your countries. Do you believe that those mostly young men and women, with families and children back home, want to be in Europe, prepared to die in yet another ****ing European war?

And if even now you feel that you are already safe, your countries should leave NATO immediately, freeing us from our treaty obligations to defend your sorry asses. Your defenseless lands will be easy trophies for RF - but don't you worry - we will totally send you blankets and MREs - but not weapons, since we wouldn't want any further escalation with Russia on your account, would we?

Don’t let the lefties/pacifists/Putin-noshers wind you up.

Remember they don’t speak for the majority of UK folk or Western Europeans for that matter and they hate the USA. Europe had been sleep walking into a nightmare of dependence on Russia but Putins invasion has forced us to open our eyes. The grown ups in the UK know the importance of the Special relationship.

 

[notaclue]

Senator Johnson: "Again, direct impact is one thing, but I am literally talking about rolling back the pipeline. Loosely, define that, but I mean taking action that will prevent it from ever becoming operational. […] I certainly hope the Senate Foreign Relations Committee would take up legislation to go beyond just suspending it, but from ending it permanently. Anyway, thank you, Under Secretary Nuland." https://www.congress.gov/event/117th-congress/senate-event/LC68209/text

Note that I am posting actual original sources. Their own words. The US clearly had the motive and desire to end Nord Stream. Is daft to pretend otherwise.

 

[gints]

Note the date, before they were aware of war.