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Ukraine V

Believe it or not countries can do both bad and good things.

Don't fog up the thread.

Corbyn sez we should not give weapons to Ukraine so it looses the war faster and agrees to Russian terms. It's a very common position on the Left.

What sez you? Weapons or no weapons?
I was not commenting on Corbyn, I was responding to the post @Klassik. The US has a long history of creating or exploiting shocks then exploiting the aftermath for financial gain. That the US is supplying just enough arms to Ukraine to sustain a conflict but not enough for an outright victory should surprise nobody. Ukraine very clearly does not have all the arms it is asking for, and the US just as obviously has no shortage of arms.

When this war is finally over, the US will sweep in with IMF to provide ‘help’ to rebuild Ukraine that will involve privatisation, deregulation and cuts to public spending in Ukraine that will see unemployment, loss of local business and capital flight to US companies. The greater Ukraine’s need for help, the more profit for US companies.

Is sending in a relative trickle of arms to prolong the suffering the way forward?

Or is sending in enough arms to decisively beat Russia the way forward?

Wot sez you?
 
Of course the US has interfered in other countries. IMO, the important question is whether or not this history is somehow a reason for not helping Ukraine repel the Russian invaders. I don't see any logic in that at all.

It's been a while since I posted on this thread, so I will repeat what I believe. First, Russia started this war (twice) and is 100% to blame for the ongoing killing and destruction. Russia's behavior during the war has been nothing short of abominable. Not surprising, of course, given what we saw from them in Syria, Georgia and Chechnya. I believe that all countries, including the US, that are providing military and humanitarian aid to Ukraine are justified in doing so. My only criticism has been that we are not doing enough. Lastly, this war will end when the Ukrainians (and only the Ukrainians) decide it is time to negotiate, and not before. They know better than anyone that giving concessions to Russia now will not lead to a lasting peace. It will only lead to a respite, where Russia can rebuild and rearm before continuing their invasion for a third time.

There is no evidence to suggest Russia is ready to talk before their land grab is complete. There is no evidence to suggest the Ukrainians are willing to concede territory to the invaders. If someone thinks that somehow a peace-for-huge-concessions deal would bring this war to a permanent end, then they really should explain in detail how that will work. I have yet to see any explanation, much less one that would stand up to critical examination.

Lastly, do we really need a new round of whataboutisms? With our former Russian and Serbian posters, haven't we had enough of that already on this thread?
I did not say that US a history was “somehow a reason for not helping Ukraine repel the Russian invaders”. That is not and never has been my position. Also, I would prefer to point to Putin as the instigator here, rather than ‘Russia’ or ‘Russian’

That said, you cannot disentangle this war from US interference as some people seem to want to do. Yes, Putin invaded and yes Putin is responsible for that invasion, but to ignore the history behind this war will only suit the pursuit of narrow purposes.

As I have said before, the US has a long history of exploiting war for profit, and @Klassik ‘s post should be read with care in this respect.

In this light the question is not ‘should we arm Ukraine?’, but is the US only arming the Ukraine sufficient to prolong the conflict and the suffering to a) weaken Putin and b) to force Ukraine deeper into need for IMF loans and deeper into programme of privatisation, deregulation and cuts to public services that will profit the US at the expense of the people of Ukraine?
 
You say you are an economist, but your post sounds like a politician.

Klassik understands @Le Baron 's point. Well, Klassik believes so at least, but Le Baron can correct Klassik if Klassik is off here. ;)

Politicians generally don't give evasive answers to foreign policy matters taking up a lot of room in the popular news. If one wants to hear a straightforward answer from a politician, ask them about a matter such as Ukraine and you'll generally get a pretty straightforward one or two line answer. Perhaps one will get three lines if the politician believes they have some gravitas in foreign policy. Perhaps some here would like for Le Baron, Klassik, and others to give such 'hot take' answers, but to do so will be about as foolish as the comments coming from the politicians.

As @ks.234 astutely points out above, the actual pertinent questions are quite complex and, in many cases, quite fluid. Pertinent questions related to the 'Should Ukraine receive arms?" questions include at a minimum but are not limited to: are the arms purely for defense or are the arms serving other purposes (proxy war)? What are the intended goals for the arms...achieve outright military victory or to achieve an expedient peace agreement? Are the recipients of the arms those willing to engage in peace after the conclusion of the conflict or are they extremists who might cause civil wars and further regional conflicts? What will the reaction be from the enemy by increasing arms...an arms race or perhaps an expedient conclusion? What will an increase in arms do to the general region? What will the arms do the local ecology in terms of unexploded munitions and such which, for example, continue to kill people in Asia ~50 years after the US left the region.

Again, as @ks.234 points out, there must be questions about the short-term, medium-term, and long-term impact of conflict and possible resolutions. After the US used the Afghan-USSR war as a proxy war, it seemed initially that the outcomes were very positive for the US and perhaps for the Eastern Bloc as a whole. However, Afghanistan was ignored and the US/west changed foreign policy approaches towards Eastern Europe during the latter half of the 1990s. The end result of something celebrated at the time was all that came out of Afghanistan's dire situation and now war in Europe. :rolleyes: If Ukraine/west are ultimately victorious under any circumstances, what will the rebuild and relations be like in Ukraine and Russia? Will it be like what it is during most conflicts the US is involved in, such as World War I and many recent conflicts, or like World War II?

Klassik is going to assume that nobody here has highly classified information about intelligence and military strategy from any of the belligerents. With that in mind, all anyone can go by are reports from reliable reporters on the ground in the conflict, which isn't usually as easy to get as it may seem, past history, and statements from governments. When Bush and Blair were pushing their nonsensical 'intelligence' excuse for war ~20 years ago, it was impossible to say for sure that the US-UK were engaging in nonsense, but the evidence and past history of the involved parties indicated to those sharp enough to analyze things that things weren't adding up. Indeed, even though we still don't really know why for sure the US-UK engaged in such a ridiculous war, we do know the initial inklings by those who calculated that the reasoning from the US-UK was shoddy were very, very correct. The same can be said about the west's actions in Afghanistan during the 1980s and after.

As I have said before, the US has a long history of exploiting war for profit, and @Klassik ‘s post should be read with care in this respect.

Sí señor. The corrupt nature of the upper ranks of the US military and the State Department must be considered. As Klassik pointed out earlier, Lloyd Austin was plucked for his high-ranking State Department job from the board of directors of a military contractor and a private health care firm. Both him and Secretary of State Blinken were involved in profiteering off militarization with a private equity firm right before they were appointed. Such corruption in the military/State Department is very, very common. If people don't come in with corrupt connections, they end up working for the military contractors after they serve top rôles in the military/State Department. Either way, this corrupt history must be considered as it surely would be in other contexts. President Eisenhower's farewell address as president where he warned about the military-industrial complex is just as relevant today as it ever has been.
 
Your last paragraph is cookie cutter BS. How the duck did we groom Putin? Did we sell his stepdad cheap vodka and told him to beat little Vova, too? Did we write the odious "Make Russia Great Again" books that promoted NovoRossya? Did we run crazy propaganda on Russian TV that made many Russians into war zombies?
Your first sentence suggests you have no interest in an answer. Any look at post USSR collapse will reveal a great deal of US interference in Russia, not least the Shock Therapy associated with Yegor Gaidar who was following the doctrine of US economic advisors, a therapy that put millions of Russians into poverty, imposed austerity and created the oligarchs that funded Putin.
 
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I was not commenting on Corbyn, I was responding to the post @Klassik. The US has a long history of creating or exploiting shocks then exploiting the aftermath for financial gain. That the US is supplying just enough arms to Ukraine to sustain a conflict but not enough for an outright victory should surprise nobody. Ukraine very clearly does not have all the arms it is asking for, and the US just as obviously has no shortage of arms.

When this war is finally over, the US will sweep in with IMF to provide ‘help’ to rebuild Ukraine that will involve privatisation, deregulation and cuts to public spending in Ukraine that will see unemployment, loss of local business and capital flight to US companies. The greater Ukraine’s need for help, the more profit for US companies.

Is sending in a relative trickle of arms to prolong the suffering the way forward?

Or is sending in enough arms to decisively beat Russia the way forward?

Wot sez you?

Why the focus on the US sending arms to Ukraine? Many, many European countries are doing likewise, including Germany and Poland, because the democratically elected head of sovereign Ukraine has asked for them to repel a hideous invading army.
 
Why the focus on the US sending arms to Ukraine? Many, many European countries are doing likewise, including Germany and Poland, because the democratically elected head of sovereign Ukraine has asked for them to repel a hideous invading army.
Because I was responding to @Klassik ‘s post obviously. Are European countries short of arms? Has Zelensky asked for more? Why are they not sending more?

The situation is rather more complex that the cartoon goodies and baddies narrative being sold here.
 
Corbyn’s habit of getting on the wrong side of nearly very issue is worse than the statistical probability of chance. For him to presume that he knows better than Zelensky would be laughable if it was not for the seriousness of the situation. What part of Russia invaded Ukraine does he not understand.
The West caused it……………
It's supposed to be, but is used as a ball between other powers.
My question is still extant, as you neatly avoided your stance on Ukraine.
 
Spraggons Den says Le Baron has previously stated he doesn't mind a bit of rough and tumble on political threads.

Spraggons Den also says Le Baron has previously called me 'young man' and remarked on my George Orwell avatar which in both instances is addressing the poster rather the content of the post but hey Spraggons Den doesn't t mind at all.

Spraggons Den also wonders why, if Le Baron is cool with my/our style of discussion, you feel the need to go running to head-master all the time - maybe you want to silence (get banned) those who have exposed some of your inconsistencies during your economic and political journey from Labour to the Greens?
 
Spraggons Den says Le Baron has previously stated he doesn't mind a bit of rough and tumble on political threads.

Spraggons Den also says Le Baron has previously called me 'young man' and remarked on my George Orwell avatar which in both instances is addressing the poster rather the content of the post but hey Spraggons Den doesn't t mind at all.

Spraggons Den also wonders why, if Le Baron is cool with my/our style of discussion, you feel the need to go running to head-master all the time - maybe you want to silence (get banned) those who have exposed some of your inconsistencies .....
You have not exposed anyones inconstancies, you haven’t even tried.
 
Russian money behind Chelsea's success, luxury cruises are not good for the environment, MMT not part of the Green's economic plans........
 
Russian money behind Chelsea's success, luxury cruises are not good for the environment, MMT not part of the Green's economic plans........
More drivel that has already been covered, there is no inconstancy at Chelsea, yes cruise ships are not good for the environment, but my one cruise will have caused less damage than a driving holiday to the South of England and voting for Starmer is a vote for damage to the environment to continue unabated. And yes, Imdo realise that MMT is not part of the Green Party economic plans, it was me that pointed them out to you ffs.

Also, I find it rather hypocritical that you complain about MMT being everywhere, but here you are raising it in a thread about Ukraine. Talk about a lack of self awareness.
 
How about engaging with the post instead of attacking the poster just for once?
How about practicing what you are preaching?
You’ve had answers, you just don’t like them.
Are you sure your problem is not people with different opinions? Your habit of tacking between preaching AUP and resorting to personal insult and innuendo when convenient is blatant.
 
How about practicing what you are preaching?

Are you sure your problem is not people with different opinions? Your habit of tacking between preaching AUP and resorting to personal insult and innuendo when convenient is blatant.

I was quite prepared to leave this sometime ago, but people like you keep reviving it and then complain that it’s revived.

I will leave it there, unless you or someone else revives it again.
 
I was quite prepared to leave this sometime ago, but people like you keep reviving it and then complain that it’s revived.

I will leave it there, unless you or someone else revives it again.
BS. I had a question for another member, but you couldn't resist sticking your nose in.
Any tips on how to leave it while not leaving it?
 


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