Le Baron
Unbiased advice at reasonable rates
That's a bit of a foolish question to ask someone if you think they aren't self-aware.
Ukraine V
- Thread starter DimitryZ
- Start date
klfrs
chill out
I know! Just checking it wasn't intervention time.
kensalriser
pfm Member
Blimey, this thread has really done a rewind; the same familiar set of false equivalence and repetitive, obsessive compulsive, verbose self-importance.
Le Baron
Unbiased advice at reasonable rates
Play the ball sir, not the man.
Le Baron
Unbiased advice at reasonable rates
What were we saying about self-awareness...? Must try harder.
klfrs
chill out
Don't play the victim, man.
Le Baron
Unbiased advice at reasonable rates
Physician, heal thyself.
Klassik
pfm Member
Hey, arming and training the Afghans to crush the USSR seemed like a great idea to some, eh? What about arming Iranian fundamentalists? How are those situations which happened years ago working out for the west here in modern times?
Klassik was befuddled as to why @Le Baron omitted Venezuela initially.
Tony Blair was certainly more than willing to overlook atrocities in Chechnya when British Petroleum could benefit from good relations with Russia. Certainly he wasn't the only one. How's the illustrious neoliberal Gerhard Schröder of the ruling SPD party looking these days?
The whole demand for a simple answer about arming Ukraine is preposterous. Ukraine has been armed by the west. The question isn't about arming as much as it is about that the goal of the arms is for the west. Is it to achieve peace expediently or is it to continue a long-term war in which Russia might be beaten back, but at the expense of an arms-filled country with few people left but extremists and the subsequent regional destabilization which leads to forever wars seen elsewhere across the globe where the US has intervened?
The Crimea issue is not a simple matter and neither is anything else really. Crimea for one has been in conflict, internal and external, for many years now. Perhaps Khrushchev had a great idea in his mind, but we don't know what that is. We're dealing with the consequences of it and diplomacy is the only way to solve it. Actually, there was some peace in the matter in the 1990s until the west stuck their nose into matters which led to Russia sticking their noses into matters.
palindrome
Thru a hedge, backwards and forwards.
@Le Baron
I don't disagree with the thrust of your commentary. Yet, Putin is clearly a psychopath and a megalomaniac (yes, I know, I've said this before), and I refuse to believe these particular traits were 'groomed into an ex KGB thug by the West'.
As for Saddam Hussain, he didn't have access to 5,977 nuclear warheads, and thus the very real existential threat of M.A.D.. Remember, Putin has already threatened to use the nuclear option if NATO/US were to intercede militarily in helping to defend Ukraine.
John
I don't disagree with the thrust of your commentary. Yet, Putin is clearly a psychopath and a megalomaniac (yes, I know, I've said this before), and I refuse to believe these particular traits were 'groomed into an ex KGB thug by the West'.
As for Saddam Hussain, he didn't have access to 5,977 nuclear warheads, and thus the very real existential threat of M.A.D.. Remember, Putin has already threatened to use the nuclear option if NATO/US were to intercede militarily in helping to defend Ukraine.
John
Le Baron
Unbiased advice at reasonable rates
when I said groomed (could be the wrong word) I meant the west has entertained him for decades and even treated him as an equal at times when he was presiding over deaths of journalists, suppression of LGBTQ people. They weren't interested. France knew he was buying property in Biarritz with dirty money, but they didn't care until this war when they starting publishing it as though it was 'news'.
It would probably be a good idea for NATO/US not to intervene, though Ukraine seems to lose in the middle no matter what. People say Putin is crazy, they said every Soviet leader was crazy with their finger on the button, but in truth they don't want to die horribly either.
Klassik
pfm Member
Klassik is not specifically throwing this allegation towards palindrome, but why is it that Putin is considered a psychopath and megalomaniac and not western leaders who have invaded countries?
This is not a defense of Putin, but rather a call for even-handed treatment of the belligerents and perhaps a call for understanding that both the west and Russia have had their fair share of unjustified invasions in recent times. Once that's established, perhaps there is some legitimacy to Corbyn calling for another global pact to put pressure on both Russian and American foreign policy.
If anything, that sounds like more reason to proceed with extreme caution and to use diplomacy as much as possible rather than militarization. Granted, that's not an excuse for the west to behave as they did in Iraq when it was clear they didn't have want the US and UK were claiming they had.
On the topic of diplomacy and cultural exchange, where would ole' Klassik be if Khrushchev didn't have a taste for American classical music performers?
Of course Ukraine will lose no matter what. They're stuck between two countries/organizations with very aggressive foreign policy. To make matters worse, the one they've sided with at the current time is known for austerity economics. Even if Russia is beaten back expediently, what reason is there to believe Ukraine will be rebuilt into a stable country where corruption and extremism aren't defining features? We've seen how the US has left places such as Afghanistan after the USSR was defeated.
Hook
Blackbeard's former bo'sun.
I agree. We should also stop using insults, like calling someone Henry Kissinger.
Klassik
pfm Member
ff1d1l
pfm Member
Not really comparable are they? You're an intelligent person....I don't really need to enumerate the many differences, do I?
Le Baron
Unbiased advice at reasonable rates
Quite, I thought he was a man of peace?
Klassik
pfm Member
Is Ukraine not a large country with many rather disparate groups...some of whom are likely to fall into extremism aided by poverty?
Ukraine may not be nearly as impoverished as Afghanistan, but that's not saying much about the wealth of the average Ukrainian.
Hook
Blackbeard's former bo'sun.
My mistake then for thinking you were using his name in a derogatory way. I’m sure Dimitry will be quite pleased to hear that this is how you think of him.
palindrome
Thru a hedge, backwards and forwards.
@Le Baron
A lot of what you wrote has been covered several times earlier in the thread, hence some of the responses you've been receiving. I don't think anyone is denying US/UK duplicity and hypocricy with regard to various conflicts over the years. But irrespective of that fact, Ukraine is a whole different ball game and the stakes are much higher.
Re: your last sentence - I don't believe Putin is crazy, but he is a psychopath. As such, literally no one can truly know his tipping point. Logic, reason, common sense, decency, humanity? Forget it. These don't factor in conditioning his ambitions. And if he believes he can survive a nuclear war . . ?
John
A lot of what you wrote has been covered several times earlier in the thread, hence some of the responses you've been receiving. I don't think anyone is denying US/UK duplicity and hypocricy with regard to various conflicts over the years. But irrespective of that fact, Ukraine is a whole different ball game and the stakes are much higher.
Re: your last sentence - I don't believe Putin is crazy, but he is a psychopath. As such, literally no one can truly know his tipping point. Logic, reason, common sense, decency, humanity? Forget it. These don't factor in conditioning his ambitions. And if he believes he can survive a nuclear war . . ?
John
Klassik
pfm Member
This was written in reply to Le Baron, but Klassik assumes at least some of this was meant as a reply to Klassik. With that in mind, Klassik will comment.
Maybe so, but then what do we make of, say, the George W. Bush administration? Is that some sort of group psychopathy? Remember, that administration was the same which thought sending NATO into Crimea with Sea Breeze 2006 was a sensible thing to do even though it led to a protest in Feodosia and a general decline in internal affairs which had been peaceful for quite a while.
But, anyway, it must be remembered that the current State Department is not of much different construction than the Bush one and State Departments and presidents in between Bush and Biden have conducted similar foreign policy 'blunders' (Klassik is sure they'd be labeled different if Putin did them) which could be labeled as being psychotic as well. It is vitally important that US foreign policy be assessed critically. As Klassik mentioned earlier, the highest-ranking officials in the State Department have ties to profiting off militarization and arms deals. That fact alone should cause great concern and scrutiny about how the 'world's police' formulates their decisions and policies. Remember, a war 15-25 years from now might be caused by faulty policymaking today.
DimitryZ
pfm Member
Whichever country you hold a passport of?
Should that country give weapons to Ukraine?
Like blood from a stone, honestly...