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Ukraine IV

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Will see in few next days. It is only about half of earlier reported injured soldiers, and there should be more than thousand soldiers more inside.
 
anubisgrau said:
A great lecture from BBC and other free media:

"How to report on a surrender without actually saying it's a surrender"
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It actually seems to be an exchange of prisoners: a Ukrainian surrender at Azovstal used to free an unknown number of Russian soldiers that surrendered somewhere else. Win-win for both sides: Russia can finally declare victory over the smouldering ruins of Mariupol, hold a bogus election there asap, and free up some badly-needed troops for Donbass; the Ukrainians rescue a few hundred experienced soldiers that will be used for propaganda/morale building and other tasks.
 
anubisgrau said:
A great lecture from BBC and other free media:

"How to report on a surrender without actually saying it's a surrender"



Ukraine has confirmed that hundreds of its fighters trapped for more than two months in Mariupol's Azovstal steelworks have been evacuated.

Deputy Defence Minister Hanna Maliar said 53 badly wounded soldiers were taken to the town of Novoazovsk, held by Russian-backed rebels.

She said another 211 were evacuated using a humanitarian corridor to Olenivka - another rebel-held town.

Russia earlier said a deal had been reached to evacuate the injured troops.

About a dozen buses carrying Ukrainian fighters who were holed up beneath the besieged plant were seen leaving the huge industrial site in the southern port city on Monday evening, Reuters news agency reported.
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I did notice the bizarre language. Is that the same in Russian media coverage? I would have thought they would be using 'surrender' or 'defeated' and 'taken prisoner' rather than evacuated.
Also it is unclear if this is just the wounded.
 
It’s the constant diversion to nitpicking while the murderous invasion of a neighbouring country grinds on. What’s that about?
 
MVV said:
I did notice the bizarre language. Is that the same in Russian media coverage? I would have thought they would be using 'surrender' or 'defeated' and 'taken prisoner' rather than evacuated.
Also it is unclear if this is just the wounded.
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I think it is evacuation of wounded only because those talks were ongoing for some time already.
 
PsB said:
It actually seems to be an exchange of prisoners: a Ukrainian surrender at Azovstal used to free an unknown number of Russian soldiers that surrendered somewhere else. Win-win for both sides: Russia can finally declare victory over the smouldering ruins of Mariupol, hold a bogus election there asap, and free up some badly-needed troops for Donbass; the Ukrainians rescue a few hundred experienced soldiers that will be used for propaganda/morale building and other tasks.
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correct, no more nor less.

i was only commenting on reporting of the leading agencies like AP, reuters, BBC.

a strange language, at least in my book of journalism.
 
TheDecameron said:
It’s the constant diversion to nitpicking while the murderous invasion of a neighbouring country grinds on. What’s that about?
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I like the way you emphasize "neighbouring" everytime in this context.

Sounds like you think when the invasion is 7-14,000km away, than it's not murderous?

No matter how horrible, the death toll in Ukraine is still far, far away from a death toll in, say, Iraq.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

But it's off topic, sorry.
 
You'll find little support for the Iraq War on this forum, ag, as I'm sure you must have noticed, so your retort is irrelevant and unhelpful. The point about the 'neighbouring' country is more that it means every country which shares a border with Russia, feels insecure 'because Russia gonna Russia'.
 
@Sue Pertwee-Tyr

I'm sure you are right about a lack of support for Iraq war on this forum. It was 2003, frankly I don't remember how was the stance but I trust you, most of the people here are decent.

My comment was more in direction of a lack of at least an equivalent criticism for similar and unjustified murderous invasions when committed by home boys. But I didn't expect anything more than what is obvious. I can only imagine a reaction if Russian PM/FM would say what Madelaine Albright said about Iraqi children.

@Chefren

The Russian invasion in Ukraine already lasts more than a 1,5 month longer than the US/UK invasion of Iraq - from 20 March to 1 May 2003 (1 month, 1 week and 4 days).
 
anubisgrau said:
@Sue Pertwee-Tyr
The Russian invasion in Ukraine already lasts more than a 1,5 month longer than the US/UK invasion of Iraq - from 20 March to 1 May 2003 (1 month, 1 week and 4 days).
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So how many deaths were there in Iraq in the first 6-7 weeks of the war? The Wikipedia page you linked has these figures which are somewhat comparable in time frame - the estimates vary quite a bit. But these don't really seem that "far, far away" from what we are seeing in Ukraine - especially considering that the civilian death toll in Ukraine is not at all clear yet.

Franks reportedly estimated soon after the invasion that there had been 30,000 Iraqi casualties as of April 9, 2003.[82] That number comes from the transcript of an October 2003 interview of U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld with journalist Bob Woodward. They were discussing a number reported by The Washington Post.[when?] But neither could remember the number clearly, nor whether it was just for deaths, or both deaths and wounded.

A May 28, 2003, Guardian article reported that "Extrapolating from the death-rates of between 3% and 10% found in the units around Baghdad, one reaches a toll of between 13,500 and 45,000 dead among troops and paramilitaries."[83]

An October 20, 2003, study by the Project on Defense Alternatives at Commonwealth Institute in Cambridge, Massachusetts, estimated that for March 19, 2003, to April 30, 2003, the "probable death of approximately 11,000 to 15,000 Iraqis, including approximately 3,200 to 4,300 civilian noncombatants."[84][85]

The Iraq Body Count project (IBC) documented a higher number of civilian deaths up to the end of the major combat phase (May 1, 2003). In a 2005 report,[86] using updated information, the IBC reported that 7,299 civilians are documented to have been killed, primarily by U.S. air and ground forces. There were 17,338 civilian injuries inflicted up to May 1, 2003. The IBC says its figures are probably underestimates because: "many deaths will probably go unreported or unrecorded by officials and media."
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anubisgrau said:
@Sue Pertwee-Tyr

I'm sure you are right about a lack of support for Iraq war on this forum. It was 2003, frankly I don't remember how was the stance but I trust you, most of the people here are decent.

My comment was more in direction of a lack of at least an equivalent criticism for similar and unjustified murderous invasions when committed by home boys. But I didn't expect anything more than what is obvious. I can only imagine a reaction if Russian PM/FM would say what Madelaine Albright said about Iraqi children.

@Chefren

The Russian invasion in Ukraine already lasts more than a 1,5 month longer than the US/UK invasion of Iraq - from 20 March to 1 May 2003 (1 month, 1 week and 4 days).
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There are about 15 threads on war in Iraq with over 1,200 posts. You’re presence on any of them would appear to be zero which makes your recent interest appear synthetic.
 
anubisgrau said:
@Sue Pertwee-Tyr

I'm sure you are right about a lack of support for Iraq war on this forum. It was 2003, frankly I don't remember how was the stance but I trust you, most of the people here are decent.

My comment was more in direction of a lack of at least an equivalent criticism for similar and unjustified murderous invasions when committed by home boys. But I didn't expect anything more than what is obvious. I can only imagine a reaction if Russian PM/FM would say what Madelaine Albright said about Iraqi children.
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Why don't you start another thread if you want to talk about the Iraq wars all the time? And while you're at it, start another one on the Yugoslavia wars.
 
PsB said:
Why don't you start another thread if you want to talk about the Iraq wars all the time? And while you're at it, start another one on the Yugoslavia wars.
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I'm not writing about Iraq or Yugoslav war, isn't that obvious?

I'm just trying to figure out what makes you so human about innocent victims of Russian war and so ignorant about innocent victims of US/UK wars.

Must admit it goes very slowly...
 
anubisgrau said:
I'm not writing about Iraq or Yugoslav war, isn't that obvious?

I'm just trying to figure out what makes you so human about innocent victims of Russian war and so ignorant about innocent victims of US/UK wars.

Must admit it goes very slowly...
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If this is what you call "not writing about Iraq", I'd hate to see holding forth on the subject.

You certainly understand the concept of holding ideas about several subjects simultaneously, and of being able to entertain several ideas about the same subject, and even of breaking down a large subject (global hunger, war, global warming, cruelty in the world, etc.) into component parts that you can then address more easily. How about exercising those abilities here a bit?
 
anubisgrau said:
@Sue Pertwee-Tyr

I'm sure you are right about a lack of support for Iraq war on this forum. It was 2003, frankly I don't remember how was the stance but I trust you, most of the people here are decent.

My comment was more in direction of a lack of at least an equivalent criticism for similar and unjustified murderous invasions when committed by home boys.
Click to expand...
anubisgrau said:
I'm just trying to figure out what makes you so human about innocent victims of Russian war and so ignorant about innocent victims of US/UK wars.
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Troll is as troll does, I'm, afraid. The second quote clearly can't be true if the first quote is correct. If the poster accepts that we didn't support the US/UK Iraq war, why does he persist in accusing us of double standards now?
 
anubisgrau said:
I'm not writing about Iraq or Yugoslav war, isn't that obvious?

I'm just trying to figure out what makes you so human about innocent victims of Russian war and so ignorant about innocent victims of US/UK wars.

Must admit it goes very slowly...
Click to expand...

As you are so keen on finding equivalence, the last invasion of sovereign territory that is anything like Russia's invasion of Ukraine happened in the late 1930s.
 
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