Seeker_UK
Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans
They didn't. Most serious work on the programme stopped in '42 diverting resources onto rocketry. Blame the success of Blitzkreig.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/hydro/close.html
Ukraine IV
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They didn't. Most serious work on the programme stopped in '42 diverting resources onto rocketry. Blame the success of Blitzkreig.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/hydro/close.html
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
I think that is what he said. Russia would have been defeated.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
Well the NKVD did turn up mob-handed at the Kaiser-Wilhelm Institut für Physik in Berlin in April 45 and offered the the staff a generous relocation package they were unable to refuse along with professional packing of their entire laboratory set-up. The Germans obviously used the time before 2 million Ivans arrived to disperse much of their scientists and conceal materials.
Correct. I didn't word it very clearly.
Totally, USA supplied Russia with nearly as much equipment as they used themselves.
The amount of stuff shipped over was vast; lend-lease softened the political cost in USA although a lot was written off.
lagavullin10y
pfm Member
Phew! a great relief that the nazis would have won. I did interprete the sentence indeed incorrectly - sorry fellows.
tones
Tones deaf
I personally doubt this. The Germans had been stopped before Moscow before any great amount of Allied aid arrived. One of the keys was the realisation by the Russians that the large army in the East confronting the Japanese needn't remain there. Richard Sorge in Japan had informed the Russians that Japanese interest in December 1941 lay elsewhere. As a result, this army, completely equipped for winter fighting, came west. The Germans didn't know what had hit them. They did well to hang on as well as they did, without disintegrating.
The subtitle of this book:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0241979196/?tag=pinkfishmedia-21
says it all.
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^ if we are assuming that Germany attacked Russia to start the war in 1939 and that no other countries were involved in the war (ie the wording I used 'Germany and Russia alone') I believe Germany would have won. But it is all hypothetical and silly which was my point: the question in the poll was silly.
tones
Tones deaf
Hypothetical "what if?" questions are always fun to consider, simply because nobody knows what would have happened, and it is silly to get into arguments over them. Let's face it, we all assumed that Putin's army would be marching down the main street in Kyiv within a couple of days (a week at most) from the start of the limited police action. This is egg that most of us would be happy to have on our faces.
Barrymagrec
pfm Member
anubisgrau
pfm Member
Germany was not alone when defeated on Eastern front. The axis troops consisted of Germans, Finns, Hungarians, Italians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Croats.
anubisgrau
pfm Member
finally a voice of reason here.
the history is not what we see on hollywood WWII blockbusters.
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Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
I was merely clarifying my interpretation of the post by wacko. I have no idea who would have prevailed in a war between solely Russia and Germany.
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Chefren
pfm Member
This is true, but the lend-lease equipment was very much needed for building the Red Army back up after Barbarossa in 1941 so that it could start pushing Germany back.
A lot has been said of Russian criticism of the delivered weapons, but the real help came elsewhere.
Lend-lease provided some 400,000 jeeps and trucks - especially the Studebaker trucks proved very reliable and suitable. Also 1,900 locomotives were provided during a time when the USSR produced 92 domestically. About 90% of the train wagons were also lend-lease. A lot of food was also sent, it has been estimated that if averaged out, for every day of the war, every Red Army soldier received half a pound of lend-lease food. Also half the aviation fuel, half of the explosives, half of the copper and aluminium supplies..
Basically the USSR could not have rebuilt and re-equipped and managed the logistics for the Red Army from 1942 onwards without lend-lease. Would the USSR have lost without it? I don't know. But at the very least the war would have dragged on for far longer that it did.
PsB
Citizen of Nowhere™
Wot, no Ukrainian Nazis in your list? You're slipping... Your list forgot many other nationalities: soldiers from Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, the Baltics, France, Poland, Spain, Portugal, plus something like a million people from various parts of Russia (estimates vary from 600,000 to 1,400,000), Georgians, Armenians, Tatars, Turkestanis, Arabs, etc. Either volunteers or conscripted.Germany was not alone when defeated on Eastern front. The axis troops consisted of Germans, Finns, Hungarians, Italians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Croats.
Likewise, the Soviets were not alone when they defeated Germany and its allies. Apart from the copious amounts of hardware sent by their allies, there were contingents of fighters from various parts of Europe. In particular, there was a large contingent of Poles (330,000), Czechs, Slovaks, Romanians, and a squadron or two of Free French sent by De Gaulle (see the well-documented story of the Normandie-Niemen regiment: the French air force received the regiment's 37 surviving Yak fighter planes as a thank you from Staline after WW2).
tones
Tones deaf
This would have necessitated a rather long wait! Norwegian oil only came on stream in 1969. Indeed, only in the late 1950s did people even realise the possibility of there being sufficient oil off the Norwegian coast to be worth exploratory drilling. AFAIK, Germany's oil supplier was its ally Romania, and part of the southern thrust that led to Stalingrad was towards the oilfields of the Caucasus to ensure a good supply.
anubisgrau
pfm Member
I'm sure that the French participation was crucial for Russian victory at Eastern Front. A good call!
Ukrainian Rebel Army fought at the same time against Red Army, Germans and Polish. Dunno if it was enough to make them Nazis, I doubt so, extreme nationalists yes.
Meanwhile, back to reality:
"In Mytishchi, after a session with local shamans, Alexander Subbotin, a former top manager of the Lukoil oil company, died. He was a member of the board of Lukoil Trading House LLC.
Subbotin may have died after an anti-hangover session with shaman Magua and his wife. They received clients in their private home and offered treatment with poisonous toads, according to the telegram channel Mash."
Ukrainian Rebel Army fought at the same time against Red Army, Germans and Polish. Dunno if it was enough to make them Nazis, I doubt so, extreme nationalists yes.
Meanwhile, back to reality:
"In Mytishchi, after a session with local shamans, Alexander Subbotin, a former top manager of the Lukoil oil company, died. He was a member of the board of Lukoil Trading House LLC.
Subbotin may have died after an anti-hangover session with shaman Magua and his wife. They received clients in their private home and offered treatment with poisonous toads, according to the telegram channel Mash."
PsB
Citizen of Nowhere™
They downed a few hundred German planes, which is probably more than the Croats you mentioned on the other side were able to achieve.
anubisgrau
pfm Member
Given they killed 273 enemies, maybe they fought against a majority of drones?
Chefren
pfm Member
The value of the axis troops on the Eastern front can be argued about. They did tie down Red Army troops of course, but that was mostly it. Not that this is a a worthless role, far from it, but mostly their combat value was not much to write home about.Germany was not alone when defeated on Eastern front. The axis troops consisted of Germans, Finns, Hungarians, Italians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Croats.
The Finns actually did quite well in combat, but strategically they didn't help capture or destroy Leningrad (the siege was upheld but the city was not directly attacked and in the end the siege failed), and the Murmansk railroad was not cut. One can wonder whether the supplies and troops sent to Finland would have been more or less useful elsewhere for Germany.
Italy tied down more German resources on other fronts that it was worth. The Romanians and Hungarians were left unsupported and badly equipped on the flanks of Stalingrad even when they were time after time screaming for something, anything, to shoot tanks with. The Italians suffered the same, with light alpine infantry being positioned to defend against tanks on the steppe with predictable results. The Germans ignored their pleas (they did realise it was an issue but did nothing anyway) and predictably these axis allied formations were more or less wiped out in counteroffensives like Operation Uranus. I am not sure about Bulgaria.
The Italians did have the honour of carrying out the last true successful cavalry charge; the charge of Izbushensky in August 1942.
The Croats were actually respected soldiers and the Germans considered them the best of the bunch out of all of the axis allies.
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