Ukraine III

[Enfield boy]

Note the body language as “Boris leads the international community”. Everyone else is standing back in their lines including POTUS. He also looks like he’s slept in his Oligarch bunga bunga party suit.

Forecast is for more Truss in coming days, gusting strongly, new outfits.

Going back to when our dear leader was a mere Foreign Secretary didn't he make up a prize winning limerick about the "****ara from Ankara who sowed his wild oats with the help of some goats." Offensive on so many levels. The look he's getting from Erdogan suggests 1) He's neither forgiven nor forgotten and 2) May have asked if Borys had just enjoyed his novichok laced Turkish tea.

 

[matthewr]

I think a maximum word count per thread per day per poster would focus minds and improve the quality of debate.

I think the opposite. Longer posts with proper sentences and paragraphs tend to add value and a big red flag is a reply where someone interweaves multiple mini quotes from the original post with short replies.

See likes which IMO should be used sparingly and generally only to acknowledge a good quality post that adds to the discussion or as a thank you to a post directed at you. Liking posts for essentially agreeing with you in your battle with your forum demons is another red flag for me.

 

[matthewr]

Note the body language as “Boris leads the international community”. Everyone else is standing back in their lines including POTUS. He also looks like he’s slept in his Oligarch bunga bunga party suit..

It's even worse when you can see him moving.

https://twitter.com/tradasro/status/1506923395765653510

 

[Enfield boy]

Never seen such a well deserved standing avoidance. Hope they left the door open to let the bad smell out.

 

[MUTTY1]

Seem to remember Cameron suffering the same embarrassment too. Also well deserved.

 

[russel]

It's even worse when you can see him moving.

https://twitter.com/tradasro/status/1506923395765653510

Dont know if it’s been posted but a damming letter in the FT.
“ A defence attaché despairs at inevitability of conflict
From Carl Scott, Air Commodore (Retired), Oakham, Rutland, UK
Sherlock Holmes & Watson monument at the British Embassy in Moscow
Sherlock Holmes and Watson monument at the British Embassy in Moscow © Evdoha/Dreamstime

March 23, 2022 3:59 am
The recent article by Maria Stepanova “The war of Putin’s imagination” (Life & Arts, FT Weekend, March 19) was exemplary. However, one jarring note was the unfounded notion that no one expected this aggression from the Kremlin.

I served as the UK’s defence attaché in Moscow for five years, 2011-2016, during which time this long, dark march to war was obvious, the path to conflict lit by the many pronouncements emanating from the dark red walls of Vladimir Putin’s palace.

We reported the inevitability of conflict in detail, regularly and with the despair of Cassandra. One of the earliest reports opened with a line from Sherlock Holmes, whose statue stands outside the British Embassy wall: “There’s an east wind coming all the same, such a wind as never blew on England yet. It will be cold and bitter, Watson, and a good many of us may wither before its blast.”


The evidence of Putin’s chosen path was never concealed. His many declarations were meant to be heard and understood: the colossal rearmament programme, the demand for more complex, more lethal weaponry; the militarisation of society; the distortion and seizure of the popular narrative; domination of education, the media and the courts to exclude contrasting views and, ultimately, the alienation and destruction of those among the Russian people who understood the folly of his declared ambition.

The list is remorseless, the consequences could not be ignored. But they were.

It was not until I returned to the UK on the eve of our withdrawal from the EU, a manoeuvre which greatly emboldened those in Moscow, that I understood how our society had changed in the years I was serving overseas.

All was subjugated to the City, all served the interests of our lucrative status as a safe haven for corrupt, and corrupting, wealth. The values we were demanding of other nations had long since faded from our own actions.

I despair at the decisions Putin has taken, but even more at the prospect of finding credible leadership at home in the UK among those who have compromised so long with his regime and the wealth it offered.

Carl Scott
Air Commodore (Retired)
Oakham, Rutland, UK”

 

[TheDecameron]

That’s really bad, esp the bit where he looks to the distance and waves to his imaginary friend or civil servant? who’s probably looking at his phone

 

[notaclue]

It's even worse when you can see him moving.

https://twitter.com/tradasro/status/1506923395765653510

Also the scared look on his face and the turning/moving away when he meets Biden https://twitter.com/ukiswitheu/status/1506933311331270659 Major body language alarms going off in that one.

By all accounts, Johnson isn't very sociable, which makes the desire to fly all that way to attend the Russian mountain parties all the more suspicious.

In my opinion, the other NATO leaders know (or Johnson is worried they know):

a) Johnson is Kompromat-ed to the hilt; or
b) Johnson stinks. Literally and bigly.

Also a possibly of both a) and b).

 

[DonQuixote99]

if the objective is to end the suffering in Ukraine the soonest, then a diplomatic solution has to be considered as a way forward.

To state it that way implies that a 'diplomatic solution' and a 'war solution' are two separate things, and that others have either forgotten to consider the diplomatic solution, or actually favor the war solution. So, it's a bit triggering. Everyone is considering the hell out of a diplomatic solution. All decent persons yearn for peace. But the two sides are not yet together on what an acceptable diplomatic solution may be. Ukraine wants to retain sovereignty, Russia wants that severely compromised at best, with huge territorial concessions, at best. The positions remain far apart. It just seems to many of us that more war will be necessary to make a diplomatic solution possible, tragic as that situation may be.

 

[Tony L]

See likes which IMO should be used sparingly and generally only to acknowledge a good quality post that adds to the discussion or as a thank you to a post directed at you. Liking posts for essentially agreeing with you in your battle with your forum demons is another red flag for me.

It’s an odd one and very limited IMO. It largely stops the quoting of whole posts with the comment ‘Exactly this!’ or whatever which happened a lot on the old vBulletin forum which lacked the facility, but it can certainly be used in many irritating ways! I didn’t like it at all at the start, but I couldn’t figure out how to turn it off so have kind of got used to it now. I suspect it is on balance a very narrow net gain.

 

[Spraggons Den]

It is obvious to anyone who frequents Off Topic that this is a left leaning forum and the vast majority of contributors were against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Any suggestion to the contrary is plain wrong.

It is also obvious from this thread that the vast majority of the self same individuals have come out in support of Ukraine as a sovereign nation using whatever military force it can muster to defend itself against Russia.

It seems to me that Drood and KS find this stance as objectionable or perhaps the thought of war itself more generally as reprehensible.

 

[DonQuixote99]

Not sure what ‘off hand’ remarks you refer to. If I have been off hand to anyone who hasn’t started it, please point to it and I will apologise.

I’m not sure what the problem is with ‘what if’ questions. What if is part of my thought process and I’m not sure I should be apologising for it. Any hypotheticals I have posited have been carefully framed, but they’ve been misrepresented as capitulation

You accuse me of back peddling. I haven’t.

I haven’t made an argument other than express a wish for children being brought up in a war zone to be brought to close as soon as possible. Not peace at any price, or peace at any cost or any of the other nonsense thrown at me, a sustainable (highlighted again because it is an explanation I’ve repeatedly) peace as quickly as possible. That is a wish, not an argument. To turn that wish into an action, to decide what that peace looks like, is Ukraines call.

I think the problem here is that because a war is happening on our doorstep then a great deal of impotent rage is being generated, and much like after 9/11, where it is directed doesn’t matter and anyone suggesting anything other than escalating the anger and the rage, must be the enemy.

You are too defensive, and too offensive. Impotent rage?

 

[droodzilla]

And conversely when one finds oneself getting on the wrong side of people you have respect for it's a strong signal to take stock and look at one's own behaviour. We all slip up every now and again and the key is to recognise our part in it and the rest will follow. Certainly it was the fact that I was crossing swords with you that caused me to think about my own behaviour, apologise and try to get back to a more constructive style of posting.

I would also mention seanm here as he seemingly never loses his cool. Consequently when I disagree with him I read his posts carefully and always try to find the bit I agree with or can learn from since, as much as I am a Gigachad and never wrong, there is always something there. My interactions with him, at least for me, are therefore consistently productive and useful even though we often disagree.

I lose my rag more than sean (ironic: in real life I'm super laid-back and nice) but sean resorts to trolling more often than I do. Swings and roundabouts.

That's actually quite interesting. Far from being unsubstantiated it came, I believe, from the Pentagon. There was initially quite a lot of speculation about him being seriously ill particularly early on as everyone looked for explanations of "Why has he done this?". Putin being terminally ill is not an unreasonable suggestion.

The specific bowel cancer suggestion then emerged and was possibly deliberately chosen because the slightly icky nature serves to undermine Putin and his carefully crafted image. It was then amplified by a bunch of reports from various experts but often retired generals in their 70s (who can be preoccupied with things like bowel cancer) rather than doctors.

I.e. This is sort of the opposite of the pictures of bare chested Putin on horseback which, per Ioffe, we in the west misunderstand. We see them as ridiculous and laugh but in Russia where something like 60% of men don't live through their 60s people, especially women, see it as evidence of a very strong, healthy man still active and healthy at 70.

So it might actually be a real example of CIA PsyOps!

I forgot that came from the Pentagon but, in practice, it comes down to the same thing: willingness to amplify claims that chime with a pre-established narrative, without applying much critical thinking. For what it's worth, the bowel cancer claim immediately struck me as suspect, for the reasons you allude to. I'll have egg on my face if I'm wrong, but my gut instinct is that the story was put out there to irritate Putin.

 

[MUTTY1]

I don’t write much but I do follow. I use a ‘like’ if I particularly agree with a post or it has materially added to the information present.

the Carl Scott letter has been quoted before but bears repeating.

 

[Tony L]

Have we had this Sky News clip yet (Twitter)? Sunak absolutely destroyed as his billionaire wife is clearly still profiting hugely out of Russia. As ever Tories gonna Tory.

 

[MUTTY1]

https://samf.substack.com/p/losing-...1bt1mh&s=r&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
This is relevant to the practical difficulties of ending war at any cost.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

We reported the inevitability of conflict in detail, regularly and with the despair of Cassandra. One of the earliest reports opened with a line from Sherlock Holmes, whose statue stands outside the British Embassy wall: “There’s an east wind coming all the same, such a wind as never blew on England yet. It will be cold and bitter, Watson, and a good many of us may wither before its blast.”

Erm... this is irrelevant to the main topic, but the above 'quote' does seem to me more likely to be from one of the Rathbone films of "Sherlock Holmes" than from any of the actual stories written by Conan Doyle. Many of the films were essentially war propaganda for having the USA support the UK during WW2.

Apologies for a trivial point - which I may be mistaken about. But came to mind.

I agree about the sentiment, though. It has been obvious for some time that Putin has been operating on the basis of trying one step after another to see what he could get away with. But the problem is that NATO is a *defence* alliance based on only reacting when one *member* is attacked. Anything else is an 'optional extra'. And having NATO go to war without any member being attacked would be problematic. Probably involve a lot of cat herding...

 

[Hook]

No. First of all if I have had to post repeatedly that I have been misrepresented it is because I have been repeatedly misrepresented. If you wish to say that those misrepresentations should go unchallenged and those doing the misrepresentation have some validity because they are on trend, then that says something quite unpleasant about the attitudes that inform this thread

Second, I have made myself clear time and time again, I have stated my position by going so far as to highlight my point, but to no avail. My position has been, as clearly stated many times, that if the objective is to end the suffering in Ukraine the soonest, then a diplomatic solution has to be considered as a way forward. To be honest I’m puzzled why that attracts such hostility. At no point have I said the current position is wrong, at no point have I said anything other than the way forward for Ukraine is Ukraine’s call, or that Ukraine is wrong to fight for all it’s worth, or that Ukrainians have bought the bombing on themselves, or that Putin is a nice guy, or that Putin is anything other than culpable for death and destruction. All of that is a misrepresentation.

The sooner that children are not being brought up in a war zone the better, why does that wish have to be twisted into something else?

It is true that I have not stated my position as rigid. Any view I hold is open to evidence, evolution and change. Rigid is better applied to those who fail to produce any evidence to support their misrepresentation.

I have not been critical of your posts, but can speculate why others have. On the surface, arguing for a negotiated peace seems perfectly reasonable. Who wouldn't want that? But when the only "diplomatic" solution on offer from Russia is unconditional surrender followed by forced removal (i.e., ethnic cleansing), then any argument for a negotiated peace is incorrectly assumed to be a call for capitulation. Unfortunately, each time you add a wider perspective to your posts (i.e., repeatedly calling out historical Western failings for comparison), it reinforces the misinterpretation.

I've tried to read your posts as carefully as I can, and have concluded that they contain enough ambiguity so as to be above most of the criticism you've received. But, on balance, you could have made your position a lot clearer early on, and we all could have avoided a bunch of repetitive nonsense. Just my 2p - not trying to start any new argument.

 

[Hook]

I lose my rag more than sean (ironic: in real life I'm super laid-back and nice) but sean resorts to trolling more often than I do. Swings and roundabouts.

I forgot that came from the Pentagon but, in practice, it comes down to the same thing: willingness to amplify claims that chime with a pre-established narrative, without applying much critical thinking. For what it's worth, the bowel cancer claim immediately struck me as suspect, for the reasons you allude to. I'll have egg on my face if I'm wrong, but my gut instinct is that the story was put out there to irritate Putin.

I think you are likely correct, but it doesn't stop me from wishing for cancer to bury that puffy little reptile.

I do not like thinking dark thoughts like this. But given current circumstances, I hope I can be forgiven.

 

[matthewr]

It’s an odd one and very limited IMO. It largely stops the quoting of whole posts with the comment ‘Exactly this!’ or whatever which happened a lot on the old vBulletin forum which lacked the facility, but it can certainly be used in many irritating ways! I didn’t like it at all at the start, but I couldn’t figure out how to turn it off so have kind of got used to it now. I suspect it is on balance a very narrow net gain.

I think Likes are fine, but they can definitely be used "wrong" and it's very obvious when this is the case. It's one of those conventions of online behaviour that people learn quickly and 98% of the usage here is fine. The odd passive aggressive one does stand out though.

Also PFM remains largely a genteel, polite forum and people could possibly do with a bit of toughening up by serving a tour or two at mumsnet.