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Ukraine II

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kenniGT said:
So you understand how out of place even music can be during war. Problem is, you do not feel this war that much, so you see no problem.
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I see, this is an educational thread, is it?
I get it. Tchaikovsky was Russian. Putin's Russian Army is bombing Ukraine. And some gentle souls are making a connection between the two.
 
PsB said:
I see, this is an educational thread, is it?
I get it. Tchaikovsky was Russian. Putin's Russian Army is bombing Ukraine. And some gentle souls are making a connection between the two.
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In light of 75% russian society not seeing killing citizens of ukraine as an issue, maybe that is unfortunate way forward. Those are so called soft sanctions, and maybe that will force russians to rethink the way they treat others. It might seams farfetched but if they get it from every angle, they should understand faster. I would imagine Russians would participate in event like that.
 
cooky1257 said:
On a serious note it's easy to see from this reactionary nonsense how close we are to idiots attacking people on the street just for being Russian.
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Well, people were attacked in the street for looking east Asian two years ago. Mindless violence is never far from the surface.
 
droodzilla said:
To put it bluntly, some people have lost their ****ing minds.

Maybe I should change my avatar?

It's Lev Landau, one of the greatest theoretical physicists of the 20th century.

But Russian.
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I thought it was Mo salah.
Edit: I’m not the only person who thinks so:p
 
kenniGT said:
In light of 75% russian society not seeing killing citizens of ukraine as an issue, maybe that is unfortunate way forward. Those are so called soft sanctions, and maybe that will force russians to rethink the way they treat others. It might seams farfetched but if they get it from every angle, they should understand faster.
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I grew up during the Cold War. When the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, I supported the Mujahidin. When the Soviets deployed SS20s to E. Europe, I supported the deployment of Pershing missiles, a position that was IMHO correct but not very popular - I was studying in Germany at the time, and my contemporaries were more of the "lieber Rot als Tot" and "BAFÖG statt Pershing" persuasion. Imagine my surprise when, during my first visit to Russia (New Year 1987), I realised my Russian hosts (friends of friends) were actually not just lovely human beings, but fellow Europeans, and in many ways a lot closer to me than those Afghan rebels we'd been plying with Stingers. I should have known this, of course, but the Iron Curtain was a powerful divider even in the 80s.

We have to help the Ukrainians, who have been attacked by a quasi-fascist foreign power, preferably without starting WW3. But we also have to think about how to peel away some of those Russians that still support Putin. It is very important to maintain the distinction between the acts of the Russian government and its supporters (including artists like Gergiev), large numbers of Russian civilians who are only fed a propaganda diet that makes Fox News look objective, and those elements of Russian culture that are universal and part of humanity's collective capital. I'm all for sanctions, sorry special financial operations, but denying Russian culture impoverishes us, and doesn't make Russians more receptive to our message.
 
PsB said:
Imagine my surprise when, during my first visit to Russia (New Year 1987), I realised my Russian hosts (friends of friends) were actually not just lovely human beings, but fellow Europeans, and in many ways a lot closer to me than those Afghan rebels we'd been plying with Stingers. I should have known this, of course, but the Iron Curtain was a powerful divider even in the 80s.
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that is of course the case, but there is unfortunately a large proportion of the population who have bought into the Russian propaganda, hate the west and fully support the war. Did you see the video of the interview of the Ukrainian guy whose russian father refused to believe him about the fact that the Russians were shelling his town?


My Belarussian work colleage who has strong links to russia tells me that there are very many people like this. She even tells me that some of her PhD education level (ex) friends living and studying abroad in the west are pro putin and have bought into the propaganda hook, line and sinker and see the west as a threat to Russia.

If putin eventually falls, there wil be a need for deprogramming on a huge scale.
 
I was saddened to hear on the news that the use of chemical weapons in Ukraine has become a possibility in order to clear out entrenched defenders of cities. I never thought this would be an issue on European soil in my lifetime.

What will the Wests reaction be should Putin use them?
 
NeilR said:
that is of course the case, but there is unfortunately a large proportion of the population who have bought into the Russian propaganda, hate the west and fully support the war. Did you see the video of the interview of the Ukrainian guy whose russian father refused to believe him about the fact that the Russians were shelling his town?


My Belarussian work colleage who has strong links to russia tells me that there are very many people like this. She even tells me that some of her PhD education level (ex) friends living and studying abroad in the west are pro putin and have bought into the propaganda hook, line and sinker and see the west as a threat to Russia.

If putin eventually falls, there wil be a need for deprogramming on a huge scale.
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The economic sanctions will simply prove to them that they are indeed under attack by the west while their armed services are just trying to prevent genocide. Still, having your credit card stopped and your McDonalds shut down isn’t as bad as having your appartment block bombed with your family in it after your water and electricity supplies have been destroyed.
 
Spraggons Den said:
I was saddened to hear on the news that the use of chemical weapons in Ukraine has become a possibility in order to clear out entrenched defenders of cities. I never thought this would be an issue on European soil in my lifetime.

What will the Wests reaction be should Putin use them?
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As always, wring our hands, totally condemn their use as war crimes, keep the UK door firmly closed - as they will be polluted with nasty chemicals!!

I do wish they would stop bringing up the "war crimes" tag, as how on earth will they ever enforce the threat - send a taxi along to the Kremlin and ask Mr Putin to jump in for a nice jaunt to the Hague. Just drop the bombs and get us off this ball of total human pus!!
 
DimitryZ said:
Crimean history is very complex. First settled by Crimean tatars, this region had been first annexed to the Russian empire, bloodily (and stupidly) fought over with Britain and France in the 19 century, then Kruschev moved it from Russian Socialist Republic to the Ukrainian Socialist Republic (it's connected - barely - to Ukraine). All this time the Russian and Soviet governments encouraged Russian setting in Crimea, to Russify it.
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Not wanting to teach my Grandma to suck eggs here, but I think it's worth mentioning the Tatar deportation even in a single paragraph summary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars
 
PsB said:
I grew up during the Cold War. When the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, I supported the Mujahidin. When the Soviets deployed SS20s to E. Europe, I supported the deployment of Pershing missiles, a position that was IMHO correct but not very popular - I was studying in Germany at the time, and my contemporaries were more of the "lieber Rot als Tot" and "BAFÖG statt Pershing" persuasion. Imagine my surprise when, during my first visit to Russia (New Year 1987), I realised my Russian hosts (friends of friends) were actually not just lovely human beings, but fellow Europeans, and in many ways a lot closer to me than those Afghan rebels we'd been plying with Stingers. I should have known this, of course, but the Iron Curtain was a powerful divider even in the 80s.

We have to help the Ukrainians, who have been attacked by a quasi-fascist foreign power, preferably without starting WW3. But we also have to think about how to peel away some of those Russians that still support Putin. It is very important to maintain the distinction between the acts of the Russian government and its supporters (including artists like Gergiev), large numbers of Russian civilians who are only fed a propaganda diet that makes Fox News look objective, and those elements of Russian culture that are universal and part of humanity's collective capital. I'm all for sanctions, sorry special financial operations, but denying Russian culture impoverishes us, and doesn't make Russians more receptive to our message.
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I was raised behind Iron Curtain, and I know the mentality. Yes, most people are lovely human beings. But people also they like to be comfortable. Many will put a blind eye just to have better personal situation, and they will defend it, often being in denial, living own life. Those are even intellectual people, who do not believe in government propaganda, and that is surprising. I saw yesterday discussion panel, and one journalist was saying how it is in Russia now. He has a lot of friends there, who are not supporting Putin's Regime. But when he asks about Ukraine, they support the invasion. Since kids they were educated that Russia always was a big Empire, and they lost land on the west. For them it is just taking what is theirs. Comfortable approach. When you argue, they will say that US invaded Irak or Afghanistan, so why they can take what was belong to them? (well does not, they occupied Ukraine for a long time)
 
kenniGT said:
No-one wants to have connection to anything Russian at the moment.

Understandable and justifiable.
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You are descending into racism, which is entirely unacceptable on this website. It is exactly the same mindset that riddled Labour over the Israel/Palestine issue where a minority of mouth-breathers started confusing the hard right-wing Likud government with the Jewish people at large. I will not allow the same to happen here in my site.

Russia is a brutal dictatorship. Its people have zero say in this war, let alone its musicians historic or current. Banning Tchaikovsky, Shostakovich etc is worse than moronic IMHO. It is jingoistic, nationalist and racist. Take it elsewhere.
 
NeilR said:
that is of course the case, but there is unfortunately a large proportion of the population who have bought into the Russian propaganda, hate the west and fully support the war. Did you see the video of the interview of the Ukrainian guy whose russian father refused to believe him about the fact that the Russians were shelling his town?


My Belarussian work colleage who has strong links to russia tells me that there are very many people like this. She even tells me that some of her PhD education level (ex) friends living and studying abroad in the west are pro putin and have bought into the propaganda hook, line and sinker and see the west as a threat to Russia.

If putin eventually falls, there wil be a need for deprogramming on a huge scale.
Click to expand...
There are many Russians who feel this way even among those that have lived in the West for decades and generally enjoyed the existence. One of my wife's ex-colleagues is from an ethnic minority in Russia. She got out in the early 90s and has lived in the EU ever since, where she has a good job. She is a smart, highly educated person. She feels under siege and seems to be developing elements of a Millwall "everybody hates us, we don't care" mentality. The novel she was about to get published which had autobiographical elements just got turned down by her publisher, "under the circumstances" etc. She is very upset by all this Cancel Dostoievsky stuff, as culture (and Russian culture in particular) is a central part of her existence.
 
Tony L said:
You are descending into racism, which is entirely unacceptable on this website. It is exactly the same mindset that riddled Labour over the Israel/Palestine issue where a minority of mouth-breathers started confusing the hard right-wing Likud government with the Jewish people at large. I will not allow the same to happen here in my site.

Russia is a brutal dictatorship. Its people have zero say in this war, let alone its musicians historic or current. Banning Tchaikovsky, Shostakovich etc is worse than moronic IMHO. It is jingoistic, nationalist and racist. Take it elsewhere.
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Racism? It it a way of condemning by our society and trying to wake up sleeping Russian population.
In Cardiff is it not me who is banning Tchaikovsky show, it is not me who fired Mazepin from Formula 1, it is not me who exclude all Russian sports people from competitions.
That is now world effort and temporary ban on show in Cardiff is not racist, it understandable and justified effort to shake up Russian society. Show like this would have Russians participating. Russians needs to wake up and that is the goal here. You guys do not know how it is to be in society like that. You need to feel uncomfortable personally, sometimes in unrationed way, to start to do something.
 
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I'm slightly conflicted on this Tchaikovsky thing. I know it is stupid to ban stuff just 'because Russia', and I know it's the start of a slippery slope, so I'm not endorsing the decision. But I can nevertheless understand and respect it. It's the 1812 Overture, which is about a war being fought in the Crimea, it is jingoistic and triumphalist in nature and tone. It has resonance that other Russian work does not, and I think if I were in the audience I would hope for a couple of hours' respite from the cares of worrying about Ukraine, and this would just serve to bring me back to that place.
 
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