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Ukraine II

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Tony L said:
There is a huge difference between sanctioning an oligarchy and descending into jingoistic book-burning. We need to stay well on the right side of that line.
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Sanctioning only oligarchy, will not work, as it did not work in Iran or North Korea. They will find the way. The message is, if you want to be proud Russian, as you should, do something about it now. Now is the time. And some oligarch might take 60% financial loss on the chin, but when they cancel his music show, he might just go crazy. There is quite a bit of them in UK.
 
I feel like they would have done a lot better to keep the event on but to release a thoughtful statement / analysis on the relationships between culture, historical events, modern events, etc. alongside it. That would have thrown the whole event into a new context while, if done right, causing people on all sides to step back and think a little bit.
 
kenniGT said:
But when he asks about Ukraine, they support the invasion. Since kids they were educated that Russia always was a big Empire, and they lost land on the west. For them it is just taking what is theirs. Comfortable approach. When you argue, they will say that US invaded Irak or Afghanistan, so why they can take what was belong to them? (well does not, they occupied Ukraine for a long time)
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The harm caused by Bush Jr's war of choice was incalculable. The Iraqis and the rest of the region bore the brunt of it, of course, but the rest of the world is still paying the price in other ways, including the way it sort of legitimized this kind of rubbish. "The Americans did it in Iraq, so why can't we? We are a superpower too, we demand our full rights. We're no worse than you are". And the people in the so-called West who hate the US (or NATO etc.) for various other reasons are only too happy to subscribe to the narrative.
 
We didn`t ban the playing of German music, even Wagner*, during the war, it is utterly stupid to ban Russian music now.

* Wagner had been dead for fifty years when the Nazi party came to power - Hitler wasn`t his fault.
 
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gustav_errata said:
I feel like they would have done a lot better to keep the event on but to release a thoughtful statement / analysis on the relationships between culture, historical events, modern events, etc. alongside it. That would have thrown the whole event into a new context while, if done right, causing people on all sides to step back and think a little bit.
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Agreed. Art is very often a crucial tool in political/cultural change. It is a net good for sure. Banning art of any kind really is a Taliban-grade move. I certainly won’t be burning any Russian music or literature!

PS Shostakovich would be a good move for a concert as he so obviously took the piss right out of the authoritarian communist state of his time in the more deliberately ponderous of his symphonies. They would be similarly applicable to Putin’s fascist state.
 
Tchaikovsky's second symphony is based on Ukrainian folk music. The symphony is nicknamed The Little Russian -- apparently because Ukraine was called Little Russia. It's years and years since I last heard it, but I remember it was fun.

PsB said:
I see, this is an educational thread, is it?
I get it. Tchaikovsky was Russian. Putin's Russian Army is bombing Ukraine. And some gentle souls are making a connection between the two.
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PsB said:
The harm caused by Bush Jr's war of choice was incalculable.
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Indeed. And it wasn't the first time - the Gulf of Tonkin Incident, which was the US's excuse to get involved in Vietnam, also didn't happen the way they said it did. As Tom Lehrer put it:

When someone makes a move
Of which we don't approve
Who is it that always intervenes?

Unfortunately, Putin is merely using the playbook by which big countries have always played - they feel they have the right, indeed, almost the duty, to dictate to "lesser" countries how they should run their affairs. It never ends well, and those who try it are merely corroborating Einstein's famous definition of craziness - doing the same thing again and expecting a different result.
 
Barrymagrec said:
We didn`t ban the playing of German music, even Wagner*, during the war, it is utterly stupid to ban Russian music now.

* Wagner had been dead for fifty years when the Nazi party came to power - Hitler wasn`t his fault.
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Hang on, I don't think anyone has banned Tchaikovsky. One venue decided to cancel (or even postpone?) a Tchaikovsky event, probably because they just didn't want to deal with the foaming-at-the-mouth response it would have inevitably garnered on social media. Unfortunately, they didn't realize that cancelling it would simply result in froth hitting them from the other direction.
 
paulfromcamden said:
Drop the bombs where? Moscow?

Will you feel the same way when Russia retaliates and bombs your child's home?
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Paul, absolutely take your point, and of course once 1 bomb then potentially Armageddon! Yep have 2 "kids" both 25 (M&F) My daughter, who is in the army, and I have discussed that our intention if/when all goes turtle is to try to get to an epicentre and not die slowly! Milliseconds much better option than radiation poisoning.
If this is to be the 6th(?) great extinction so be it. Humans really are a blight. Dont get me wrong, both my kids and I LOVE our lives but I just have a feeling, "If not now, then when" - our behaviour should change, but I dont hold out much hope, do you?
 
cooky1257 said:
How hard?
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poppop said:
Paul, absolutely take your point, and of course once 1 bomb then potentially Armageddon! Yep have 2 "kids" both 25 (M&F) My daughter, who is in the army, and I have discussed that our intention if/when all goes turtle is to try to get to an epicentre and not die slowly! Milliseconds much better option than radiation poisoning.
If this is to be the 6th(?) great extinction so be it. Humans really are a blight. Dont get me wrong, both my kids and I LOVE our lives but I just have a feeling, "If not now, then when" - our behaviour should change, but I dont hold out much hope, do you?
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Well, I'm still hopeful the human race won't wipe itself out this week!

TBH I don't entirely disagree - most of the sentient creatures whose home we share will breath a sign of relief when we're gone. But selfishly I'd prefer that moment to come in 50+ years time when I'm out of the picture...
 
eternumviti said:
It beggars belief that the government is boasting about its proposal to send Ukraine some sort of new, state if the art anti-aircraft rocket system. It seems to be just inviting Putin to say, 'don't send it, or else...'

Why could they not just quietly get on with it, without bleating.
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Has Liz Truss slipped up and accidently revealed that she is working for the Russians? In a press conference with her American counterpart she announced that the UK is sending Ukraine the best possible Anti Air Defence Systems. That’s the one where you see a helicopter coming, launch a missile, which then promptly turns around and destroys the launcher.


There is a saying that the first casualty of war is the truth. Making a big, public announcement that the US isn’t going to facilitate the transfer of the MiG’s could mean exactly the opposite and gets the Russians to watch Ramstein while slipping them across the border on lorries.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
I'm slightly conflicted on this Tchaikovsky thing. I know it is stupid to ban stuff just 'because Russia', and I know it's the start of a slippery slope, so I'm not endorsing the decision. But I can nevertheless understand and respect it. It's the 1812 Overture, which is about a war being fought in the Crimea, it is jingoistic and triumphalist in nature and tone. It has resonance that other Russian work does not, and I think if I were in the audience I would hope for a couple of hours' respite from the cares of worrying about Ukraine, and this would just serve to bring me back to that place.
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I think the theatrical canon fire the piece calls for was a bit of a non starter given the circumstances. They could have substituted another Tchaikovsky composition, something calming like Serenade for Strings.
 
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TalYWaun said:
Has Liz Truss slipped up and accidently revealed that she is working for the Russians? In a press conference with her American counterpart she announced that the UK is sending Ukraine the best possible Anti Air Defence Systems. That’s the one where you see a helicopter coming, launch a missile, which then promptly turns around and destroys the launcher.
<snip video>
There is a saying that the first casualty of war is the truth. Making a big, public announcement that the US isn’t going to facilitate the transfer of the MiG’s could mean exactly the opposite and gets the Russians to watch Ramstein while slipping them across the border on lorries.
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Let's home that Liz Truss isn't handling the transport of the MiGs, if so. She'd send them to Ramsgate.
 
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