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Trump Part 20

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droodzilla said:
I was simply pointing out that there are two levels to the discussion. Practically, they are interlinked, as you suggest, but it helps to keep in mind that they are logically distinct.

I disagree with you about strategy. The right will have no such qualms about alienating half the country, as long as they can hold on to power by whatever means are necessary. Progressives must be equally ruthless or they will be crushed and, frankly, they will only have themselves to blame.

Like it or not, politics has changed. It's no longer a civilised debate between parties who essentially agree on the ground rules. It's more like a no-holds-barred fight for the soul of America, and we all need to choose a side.

I don't know how much progressive voter apathy contributed to Trump's victory in 2016 but, for what it's worth, I argued for Clinton then, just as I'm arguing for Biden now.
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We probably will have to leave about 30% alienated. The closer it gets to 50% the less stable long-term success will be possible.
 
droodzilla said:
Tactics vs Strategy

Tactics: do whatever it takes to get rid of wannabe dictator Trump.

Strategy: do whatever it takes to stop another Trump in future.

Voting for Biden addresses the first, and the vast majority of progressives will do what's needed.

However, many progressives are unconvinced that voting for Biden addresses the strategic challenge (and I fear they are right).

Same argument in the UK. If Starmer wins in 2024 and merely resets to (e.g.) 1997 that does nothing to address the factors that led to Brexit and the growth of a far-right Conservative Party.
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Crucial difference is that the US demographic is moving toward the Democrats which is why the GOP are getting increasingly desperate to suppress the vote. In the UK, traditional left leaning vote has gone the other way, anti-immigrant, socially conservative irrespective of the economics.
 
matt j said:
Yeah, he sounds completely fine...

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Fake news:

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/10/viral-image-spreads-bogus-trump-quote-on-covid-19-recovery/
 
droodzilla said:
Tactics vs Strategy

Tactics: do whatever it takes to get rid of wannabe dictator Trump.

Strategy: do whatever it takes to stop another Trump in future.

Voting for Biden addresses the first, and the vast majority of progressives will do what's needed.

However, many progressives are unconvinced that voting for Biden addresses the strategic challenge (and I fear they are right).

Same argument in the UK. If Starmer wins in 2024 and merely resets to (e.g.) 1997 that does nothing to address the factors that led to Brexit and the growth of a far-right Conservative Party.
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It's easy to confuse the two.

A strategy is a plan of action designed to achieve a long-term or overall aim, whereas tactics are small mints that come in a plastic box.
 
Joe P said:
Hook,



This is something I've been thinking about a lot. It's odd that environmentalism isn't a fundamental conservative and evangelical value. You'd think that people who are driven by business ideals would see the logic of living within nature's means — living off the interest rather than destroying the biological capital. And the people who see the Earth as God's creation might want to take better care of it.

Joe
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You seem to be forgetting that they are completely unhinged though... Madder in fact than mad Jack McMad, winner of last years "Mr Madman" competition...
 
Arkless Electronics said:
You seem to be forgetting that they are completely unhinged though... Madder in fact than mad Jack McMad, winner of last years "Mr Madman" competition...
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And remember that a lot of them think that Jesus is coming back soon to rescue them, so it doesn't actually matter how big a mess they make. I remember Sarah Palin being totally convinced that the Second Coming would occur in her lifetime..
 
Yank said:
Would you rather us vote for Trump???
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Do what you want. It’s not going to improve matters much: two rapey old establishment men. One backed up by a ****ing ex-cop, the other by a zombie Jesus freak. Great. I’d hold my nose.
 
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claire.foxx said:
Do what you want. It’s not going to improve matters much: two rapey old establishment men. One backed up by a ****ing ex-cop, the other a zombie Jesus freak. Great. I’d hold my nose.
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Don't be ridiculous. There's so much more to an election than just the people at the tops of the tickets. You have to consider what kind of administration they'll bring. We already know what Trump's is like...

Even if they are just different versions of creeping fascism, would you rather it be the fast lane to fascism, or the slow lane?
 
claire.foxx said:
Do what you want. It’s not going to improve matters much: two rapey old establishment men. One backed up by a ****ing ex-cop, the other a zombie Jesus freak. Great. I’d hold my nose.
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My hope is that most people, unlike you, can actually tell the difference between a capitalist democrat and a proto-fascist.
 
Yank said:
Don't be ridiculous. There's so much more to an election than just the people at the tops of the tickets. You have to consider what kind of administration they'll bring. We already know what Trump's is like...

Even if they are just different versions of creeping fascism, would you rather it be the fast lane to fascism, or the slow lane?
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Neither.

Trump isn’t the big problem the machinery of what got him there is... the same machinery you think is going to set you free of him — do any of you see this?
 
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