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Transports all sound the same...

I think it is important to differentiate between analogue and digital replay when defining any "transport".

The elements of an "analogue transport" would include:

1) Some accurate media drive mechanism (eg: turntable/tonearm/tape drive)
2) Some signal transcription mechanism (eg cartridge, tape head)
3) Some signal level booster where needed (eg step-up device)
4) Output is an analogue signal

These basic elements are all that are required for any analogue source medium.

If we look at a "digital transport", this changes in some areas:

1) Some accurate media drive mechanism (eg: motor/spindle/clamp or HDD)
2) Some signal read mechanism (eg: laser pickup or read mech in HDD)
3) Some timing/buffer elements (eg master clock/output buffer)
4) Output is a digital signal

Before the output signal from a digital transport can be amplified in most audio topologies, the signal needs to be converted from digital to analogue and this is where the key difference exists between analogue and digital transports.

For analogue transports, there is also the need for an interface between the base transport and a line-level pre-amp - a phono stage, which boosts the low output from the cartridge to a level that the pre-amp/power amp/integrated can manage.

In digital transports, a DAC can be viewed as analogous (sorry - couldn't resist) to the phono stage, except it must also convert the digital signal to an analogue signal. (Yes, this is an over-simplification!)

In both of these, it is important to maintain the original pitch, phase, timing, tonal balance, etc. while carefully avoiding any spurious artefacts that would negatively impact the analogue sound to amplified and drive the speakers.

Over the years of analogue replay, since the release of the microgroove stereo LP standard with its RIAA equalisation, the manufacturers of turntables, cartridges and phono-stages have focused on maintaining the "good" and eliminating the "bad" in this chain.

Digital replay has had less time for development and was, initially, plagued by some incorrect assumptions as to what was "good" and what was "bad". The early assumption that "bits is bits" and nothing else mattered was soon disproved when it was discovered that timing errors (aka jitter) could also have a negative effect on SQ. During these "development years" various approaches were adopted in attempts to improve the SQ of digital replay.

This "development phase" is on-going and - in recent years - has been more focused on DAC development rather than transport development (apart from their ability to support emerging digital formats).

Do we - at this point - know all there is to know about digital replay?

I doubt it...

Dave
 
I think it is important to differentiate between analogue and digital replay when defining any "transport".

The elements of an "analogue transport" would include:

1) Some accurate media drive mechanism (eg: turntable/tonearm/tape drive)
2) Some signal transcription mechanism (eg cartridge, tape head)
3) Some signal level booster where needed (eg step-up device)
4) Output is an analogue signal

These basic elements are all that are required for any analogue source medium.

If we look at a "digital transport", this changes in some areas:

1) Some accurate media drive mechanism (eg: motor/spindle/clamp or HDD)
2) Some signal read mechanism (eg: laser pickup or read mech in HDD)
3) Some timing/buffer elements (eg master clock/output buffer)
4) Output is a digital signal

Before the output signal from a digital transport can be amplified in most audio topologies, the signal needs to be converted from digital to analogue and this is where the key difference exists between analogue and digital transports.

For analogue transports, there is also the need for an interface between the base transport and a line-level pre-amp - a phono stage, which boosts the low output from the cartridge to a level that the pre-amp/power amp/integrated can manage.

In digital transports, a DAC can be viewed as analogous (sorry - couldn't resist) to the phono stage, except it must also convert the digital signal to an analogue signal. (Yes, this is an over-simplification!)

In both of these, it is important to maintain the original pitch, phase, timing, tonal balance, etc. while carefully avoiding any spurious artefacts that would negatively impact the analogue sound to amplified and drive the speakers.

Over the years of analogue replay, since the release of the microgroove stereo LP standard with its RIAA equalisation, the manufacturers of turntables, cartridges and phono-stages have focused on maintaining the "good" and eliminating the "bad" in this chain.

Digital replay has had less time for development and was, initially, plagued by some incorrect assumptions as to what was "good" and what was "bad". The early assumption that "bits is bits" and nothing else mattered was soon disproved when it was discovered that timing errors (aka jitter) could also have a negative effect on SQ. During these "development years" various approaches were adopted in attempts to improve the SQ of digital replay.

This "development phase" is on-going and - in recent years - has been more focused on DAC development rather than transport development (apart from their ability to support emerging digital formats).

Do we - at this point - know all there is to know about digital replay?

I doubt it...

Dave


Good post!
 
Digital replay has had less time for development and was, initially, plagued by some incorrect assumptions as to what was "good" and what was "bad". The early assumption that "bits is bits" and nothing else mattered was soon disproved when it was discovered that timing errors (aka jitter) could also have a negative effect on SQ. During these "development years" various approaches were adopted in attempts to improve the SQ of digital replay.

Yes - a bit funny considering jitter (and how to deal with it) has been well understood for at least 50 years by communications engineers.
 
I'm still sensible!

Don't suppose any of you guys could offer an explanation as to why this usually sensible bloke is hearing such a marked difference? To be absolutely clear the Meridian 506 has been left to me by my late brother-I can't imagine a stronger bias at work here to make me prefer the 506 but the T1 is outperforming it. I have no idea what electro acoustic mechanisms are at work here but the entire image and the elements within are physically(?) larger/deeper. Rather than the usual dogma I had hoped for rational explanation. eg the 506 could be getting long in the tooth and may be feeding the BM2 a stream of heavily error corrected data? Does the SB3/Media server has its formats optimised? etc....

Carry on, I'm getting the cd's back down from the loft...
 
I'm still sensible!

Don't suppose any of you guys could offer an explanation as to why this usually sensible bloke is hearing such a marked difference? To be absolutely clear the Meridian 506 has been left to me by my late brother-I can't imagine a stronger bias at work here to make me prefer the 506 but the T1 is outperforming it. I have no idea what electro acoustic mechanisms are at work here but the entire image and the elements within are physically(?) larger/deeper. Rather than the usual dogma I had hoped for rational explanation. eg the 506 could be getting long in the tooth and may be feeding the BM2 a stream of heavily error corrected data? Does the SB3/Media server has its formats optimised? etc....

Carry on, I'm getting the cd's back down from the loft...

Could you remind us again exactly what the setups were that you compared? The 506 and T1 as transports, feeding the same DAC? The Squeezebox (SB3 or SBT?) feeding the same DAC as well? Source material the same, and gain matched?
 
Yes - a bit funny considering jitter (and how to deal with it) has been well understood for at least 50 years by communications engineers.

You make an excellent point...

Maybe my last question in my last post should read "Do digital audio designers/manufacturers know everything about digital replay, INCLUDING THE KNOWLEDGE RE RELEVANT ASPECTS THAT HAS BEEN ACCUMULATED IN OTHER, MAYBE UNRELATED, FIELDS?

The current situation smacks of a "not-invented-here" mind-set (at best) or an overpowering arrogance (at worst).

Alternatively, maybe over-specialisation is at fault...

Dave
 
Maybe my last question in my last post should read "Do digital audio designers/manufacturers know everything about digital replay, INCLUDING THE KNOWLEDGE RE RELEVANT ASPECTS THAT HAS BEEN ACCUMULATED IN OTHER, MAYBE UNRELATED, FIELDS?

Indeed. And in many cases it really seems like the answer is "unfortunately not".

The current situation smacks of a "not-invented-here" mind-set (at best) or an overpowering arrogance (at worst).

Alternatively, maybe over-specialisation is at fault...

Yes, I see it a lot even in standards committees and working groups. Just take IoT - the consumer electronics EE's seem to live on a very different planet than the network engineers, resulting in a lot of reinvention of square wheels.

Unfortunately, in our current connected world, we also need the AES types, the IEEE types and the IETF types to talk to each other.
 
Can you clarify how you know this? It's been an ongoing discussion in the Roon forums.

I've tried Tidal but the bias towards certain artists/genres is tiresome and I'd love to use Qobuz instead.

D

Actually, my mistake, but possibly better news. Reading more closely they are planning on implementing Roon-type features in their own software. So this means not having to pay an extra $120 annually.

As I find the Qobuz player very friendly, much moreso than Roon, that's very good news. Saying that, Qobuz also say a new player is imminent.

I asked them last week and here's the reply:

Our team is working 100% on the update of the Qobuz Desktop application and that of PLAYER-browser on computer. The entire interface has been redesigned, research, discovery and navigation will be reviewed, all to be both more intuitive, more efficient and more enjoyable with availability before the end of the year.

The second step will be to Qobuz offer new features (such as those that you can enjoy in ROON). These features will be offered progressively and directly into Qobuz da natively from power in 2017.

As with spinners, rather than ask on forums, I tend to ask the manufacturer direct.
 
Unfortunately, in our current connected world, we also need the AES types, the IEEE types and the IETF types to talk to each other.

Actually, it may be more important for them to listen to each other rather than talk - but human nature gets in the way... :)
 
I just didn't get on with the SBT so may have been unfair to it and not given it a proper chance. I hated the interface and user experience (I'm used to Apple, e.g an Airport Express and an iPhone or iPad as a remote). Just a product I had no use for and only bought because it was on a half-price offer or similar. I got my cash back easy enough by selling it on!
I recommend the following for the Touch. Even skeptical types could go for them, since on one hand they're easy and free (App Gallery from on-screen menu, bosh) and on the other hand they're only going to reduce noise within the device (no harm).
1. EDO (switches off analogue output/software layer bypassed, digital only - plus up to 24/192 even with TOSLINK)
2. 'Display Off' (adds new screen saver type that completely switches off the screen and rendering - as with other screen savers, you can configure the delay and when it kicks in for playback, stopped etc; I use it just during playback)
 


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