Tory Leadership Runners and Riders

[droodzilla]

Truss’s plan seems to be based on borrowing, which as even Jacob Rees Moog understands is no more that government borrowing from itself. It is a credible plan to create more government spending, though at some point, Tories being Tories, in the future there will be demands that the public pays back what the government has borrowed from itself.

As Labour has ruled out borrowing or raising taxes and at the same time committed itself to reducing both the debt and the deficit, it has not produced a credible plan to increase public spending and therefore plans to deal with looming problems sustainably. Sooner or later Labour will have to say how it will fund it’s spending plans, and as we saw in 2019, even a carefully calculated spending plan from Labour will be turned into something scary.

Meadway is good on analysis of the problems and the need for radical reform, but as he seems wary of increasing the deficit *and* Sunaks tax rises *and* Truss’s borrowing, I can’t work out where this reform of his is going to come from.

There's a good debate between James Meadway and Richard Murphy online. Google "against MMT" and "for MMT" with one or other of the protagonist's names.

 

[Tony L]

Yes, agree totally. But he did let it slip in an interview recently that government borrowing is nothing more that government borrowing from itself. Unfortunately we do not have any political journalist with the nous to join the dots and then ask, if government borrowing is government borrowing from itself, why it then becomes a public ‘debt’?

It is no secret to a Tory Party that created tens of £bns to hand to bogus donor companies during covid understand that this is how it works. Never confuse their knowledge and actions with the smokescreen and gaslighting they conceal it under. They need to keep Ponty etc voting for them whilst they rob the rest of us blind. They are gangsters and exploiting both the state and economy is their scam.

 

[ks.234]

It is no secret to a Tory Party that created tens of £bns to hand to bogus donor companies during covid understand that this is how it works. Never confuse their knowledge and actions with the smokescreen and gaslighting they conceal it under. They need to keep Ponty voting for them whilst they rob the rest of us blind. They are gangsters and exploiting both the state and economy is their scam.

It’s not just Ponty though, the big lies about the role of tax in spending are believed rather more widely and by respected posters.

 

[Tony L]

It’s not just Ponty though, the big lies about the role of tax in spending are believed rather more widely and by respected posters.

This is because all political parties prop up the same narrative. How can there be a counter-argument to elite Tory minority rule and all its rituals, lies and gaslighting if the main opposition do not make it?

 

[ks.234]

There's a good debate between James Meadway and Richard Murphy online. Google "against MMT" and "for MMT" with one or other of the protagonist's names.

Many thanks. Meadway does seem to use the usual regurgitated ‘MMT says……’ where the plain fact is that MMT doesn’t say…..

I’ll print off the Faiz/Mitchell article for reading later.

 

[droodzilla]

Many thanks. Meadway does seem to use the usual regurgitated ‘MMT says……’ where the plain fact is that MMT doesn’t say…..

I’ll print off the Faiz/Mitchell article for reading later.

Yes. I'm no expert but (from memory) I found Richard Murphy's rebuttal of Meadway's critique quite persuasive.

I think Meadway gets too distracted by the politics (how to convince voters that MMT is legit) - understandable, as he was John McDonnell's economic advisor in the Corbyn era.

 

[ks.234]

This is because all political parties prop up the same narrative. How can there be a counter-argument to elite Tory minority rule and all its rituals, lies and gaslighting if the main opposition do not make it?

Yes all three parties tell the same lies about the role of tax, but I would ask how an opposition party can oppose lies and gaslighting when so many people are determined to believe those lies and be gaslit. If more people questioned the lies, then we might get an opposition worth the name.

 

[Seanm]

More commentary on that “Trussonomics” article:

https://twitter.com/torstenbell/status/1565642946535374849?s=21&t=EmgI2sWRP3Yp1quizeML-g

 

[klfrs]

It's fine. I'm fine. Everything is fine.

 

[palindrome]

It's fine. I'm fine. Everything is fine.

Bloody uncanny that.

Unless . . . The Lizard was on yet another of her (many many, many!) photo shoot/opportunities designed to emulate her heroine - Hilda The Grate.

[Peter The Great. . . Winston Churchill. . . - sensing a theme here; something to do with modern day vanity, treachery.]

John

 

[droodzilla]

I might be wrong but this, from the next Chancellor of the Exchequer, suggests that Truss will quickly seek to address the cost of living crisis:

https://www.ft.com/content/3c067e28-e33a-4bda-9f2e-81a109966b20

The crucial paragraph is this:

The UK’s ratio of debt to gross domestic product is lower than any other G7 country except Germany, so we do not need excessive fiscal tightening. The OECD has said that the current government policy is contractionary, which will only send us into a negative spiral when the aim should be to do the opposite. But I want to provide reassurance that this will be done in a fiscally responsible way. Liz is committed to a lean state and, as the immediate shock subsides, we will work to reduce the debt-to-GDP ratio over time.

Which leaves the new PM a lot of space to manoeuvre in.

It's hard to avoid the conclusion that, however "sensible" Sunak might appear in comparison, Truss is more likely to offer policies that address people's immediate and urgent needs.

It's also quite possible that Truss' offer to the electorate will be more generous than Labour's proposal, which is currently valued at around £29 billion.

I would not take anything for granted in these extraordinary times.

 

[PsB]

I might be wrong but this, from the next Chancellor of the Exchequer, suggests that Truss will quickly seek to address the cost of living crisis:

https://www.ft.com/content/3c067e28-e33a-4bda-9f2e-81a109966b20

The crucial paragraph is this:

Which leaves the new PM a lot of space to manoeuvre in.

It's hard to avoid the conclusion that, however "sensible" Sunak might appear in comparison, Truss is more likely to offer policies that address people's immediate and urgent needs.

It's also quite possible that Truss' offer to the electorate will be more generous than Labour's proposal, which is currently valued at around £29 billion.

I would not take anything for granted in these extraordinary times.

I fear you may be disappointed. Reading that piece, all I see is a promise of "tax cuts to put more money in people's pockets". We already know how that one goes. The next sentence about "fiscal loosening" to get people through the winter is deliberately vague.

 

[droodzilla]

I fear you may be disappointed. Reading that piece, all I see is a promise of "tax cuts to put more money in people's pockets". We already know how that one goes. The next sentence about "fiscal loosening" to get people through the winter is deliberately vague.

I have not discounted that possibility.

 

[palindrome]

I fear you may be disappointed. Reading that piece, all I see is a promise of "tax cuts to put more money in people's pockets". We already know how that one goes. The next sentence about "fiscal loosening" to get people through the winter is deliberately vague.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/liz-truss-tax-cuts-rich-27903651

Tax cuts for the rich are FAIR, says The Lizard Queen. If this doesn't spell out her trajectory and priorities, nothing will.

John

 

[Tony L]

In fairness if she doesn’t bribe the rich who will pay for the Tory Party?

 

[palindrome]

No worries. Putin and his oligarchs have been filling Tory coffers for too many years already.

John

 

[Brian]

I might be wrong but this, from the next Chancellor of the Exchequer, suggests that Truss will quickly seek to address the cost of living crisis:

https://www.ft.com/content/3c067e28-e33a-4bda-9f2e-81a109966b20

The crucial paragraph is this:

Which leaves the new PM a lot of space to manoeuvre in.

It's hard to avoid the conclusion that, however "sensible" Sunak might appear in comparison, Truss is more likely to offer policies that address people's immediate and urgent needs.

It's also quite possible that Truss' offer to the electorate will be more generous than Labour's proposal, which is currently valued at around £29 billion.

I would not take anything for granted in these extraordinary times.

In recent times we’ve seen money appear from nowhere to bail out the bank robbers, then we saw billions appear during covid, now we could see another load appear for the energy crisis. Perhaps the UK govt is going to have to admit tax doesn’t fund public services? Educate people how a national economy really works? A tough one to achieve given their voter base who only understand a household model and their individual bank balance.

I can dream like anyone else...

 

[notaclue]

Who reckons a future incompetent Tory weirdo will be posing next to a hideous Liz Truss figurine if we fast-forward a few decades into the future?

I think it's very, very unlikely. A 0.5% chance or lower.

 

[Tony L]

Very good and sobering analysis of where we are from Richard Murphy (Twitter). I can’t see much to argue with there.

 

[Tony L]

In today’s episode of Tory Clown School is is suggested that twelve letters of no confidence in Liz Truss are heading towards the 1922 Committee before she is even installed as leader (Twitter).