Julf
Facts are our friends
"Above all" as "most importantly also" rather than "more than any other".
Topping D70 - anyone know why no distribution in Europe?
- Thread starter duckworp
- Start date
"Above all" as "most importantly also" rather than "more than any other".
The Chronicals
Disruptor
Have you checked it personally?
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
Unless you can substantiate this it's libel, tread carefully.
The Chronicals
Disruptor
Don't be daft. What bit is 'libel'? or did you misread what I wrote?
I have a bunch of fake CE stickers here that where wrongly sent to me in a shipment by a company I purchase mechanical component parts from - do you want one? Watch the Fake Britain documentary about the fake CE marked toys Amazon fulfil. You can watch those on iPlayer. I cant remember which episode but one of the most recent batch.
My suppliers/factories often ask do I need 'CE' or 'TUV' markings stamped into products. It's pretty common especially when developing a new product line with a new factory and they openly admit they do not have all the correct testing procedures and certification to validate a genuine CE mark being added (nor can provide details of what company they use to do it if they have not invested in the kit themselves).
It's partly why the mythical 'Chinese Export' mark was invented, because it can fool 9/10. Not all the time, but more times than not, so it becomes profitable. Things are a lot stricter now but it still dosent stop the fakes flooding the market. I bought a iphone charger plug this week in dire need for emergency phone juice from a non-chain high street phone shop, it worked, it has a CE mark. However it's completely fake as the pins aren't the correct size to meet CE approval. It's just the way things are now.
As I said, ask Topping for their certification numbers and check them out, and then ask them for their testing parameters and equipment (or the lab they use) to ensure they are meeting all the required criteria for the mark. If they are real then you potentially have yourself an earner.
https://support.ce-check.eu/hc/en-u...-Real-CE-Mark-From-A-Fake-Chinese-Export-Mark
(although the Chinese are aware of these guidelines have have stepped up to better quality control over their markings)
The Chronicals
Disruptor
So it has a CE, probably a Chinese Export mark by my experience of Chinese electricals. Hopefully for your sake I am wrong if you are plugging it in.
In the manual with the product, at the back, should have all the CE certification marks, and declaration of conformity, with address etc and who is 'responsible' for that sign off, does it have it out of curiosity?
It probably is well made though, the LPS's I have from Hong Kong are amazing quality, but not all of them were (mostly from China) and I returned some till I found a good manufacturer.. but conformity is conformity and I never did comment on build quality.
Sound quality is naff, its definitely £60 of sound quality, but for its price, probably acceptable. You aren't going to get a Lampizator at D10 money, so thats completely fair for its market position.
When you say the relevant authorities, CE is self certified, but you better be sure you can prove you meet the relevent regulations if challenged. As far as I can see they have third party test certificates published on their www site to show they have covered that in advance. So it actually works the other way round, if you think they don't meet CE you need to report it to trading standards via citizens advice, and you will need proof it doesn't meet a relevent standard. Might seem odd but that is the way it is.
Their preferred distribution channels are also shown on their www site, doubt anybody could strike a deal and undercut amazon.co.uk easily.
Quality from China can be stunning, much better than PCBs made in UK by contractors able to offer aerospace approved processes, in my personal experience. It can also be utter crap I am sure. It is a big place making stuff stuff for Apple and junk for street markets. Buyer beware. I see nothing worrying about Topping though.
EDIT: Full disclosure, I work for a US/UK/Chinese company with our own manufacturing facility in China, read in to that any bias or indeed informed opinion you like
This site contains affiliate links for which pink fish media may be compensated.
The Chronicals
Disruptor
Prob
Another meaning for a CE initial - Caveat Emptor.
I am fully aware of what CE is! I don't need nor want to report them to Trading Standard (Citizens Advice has nothing to do with anything really, do they even still exist?), I have no interest in using my time on this earth like that, but I am very dubious about any electricals from home brand Chinese companies, that arent distributed in certain countries and have no bigger brand like Apple governing them. Ask any London Fireman/woman about Chinese electrical items sold on the internet. I appreciate we arent talking 99p phone chargers here, but CE certification is costly to meet and maintain, and is easily faked.
A distribution deal could be around say a 40% margin depending on the level bought in at, so if these units are legitimate, then there could be quite a market opportunity for someone. Even at 20% that could be a decent investment. I had a discussion with a Taiwanese DAC manufacturer once, he could produce his units for less than $80 and he sells them at $1000+ (average). So there are big markups available, and if a distributer has a good retail connection chain and wants to put in some press and marketing work, the returns could be lucrative if the item is any good. A lot of the smaller firms are happy with selling small, less hassle, bigger markups and manageable as a small team. Distribution is different to 'sellers'.
Amazon are not resellers of Topping items, so you wouldn't need to undercut Amazon as they don't sell them. Amazon do, at times, find their own factories in China and have their own items produced , thats were their 'Amazon' basics range comes form, however unless own branded, Amazon are not strictly a distributer, they are from my understanding a retail outlet, a fulfilment house and a marketplace.
Quality can be great from China, of course it can, 80% of everything we own comes from SE Asia! I have many factories I use where the quality is brilliant, but I also have had to avoid many where the quality hasnt been, it varies hugely. I don't have any issues with CE markings not being present (or faked) if the items are of good quality I had all my LPS's checked by an electrical engineer before use (some of the LPS actually had fake components would you believe), the question posed was why there isn't a UK distributer, and I posed a potential around the CE marking not being genuine, therefore anyone taking on this companies products as a distribution deal would have to do a LOT of due diligence, which would cost time and dollars, and painful if they got at wrong, after investing in say 10,000 units.
After asking a couple of my China contacts, at this time, I do not believe Toppings certifications to be genuine, but I am more than happy to proved wrong, and to be fair, I don't care that much as I never plan to buy another of their DAC's, the first three were bad enough! Although I am curious about this D70 unit being that it uses my favourite DAC chip, so I may get one sent over on one of my next shipments.
Another meaning for a CE initial - Caveat Emptor.
I am fully aware of what CE is! I don't need nor want to report them to Trading Standard (Citizens Advice has nothing to do with anything really, do they even still exist?), I have no interest in using my time on this earth like that, but I am very dubious about any electricals from home brand Chinese companies, that arent distributed in certain countries and have no bigger brand like Apple governing them. Ask any London Fireman/woman about Chinese electrical items sold on the internet. I appreciate we arent talking 99p phone chargers here, but CE certification is costly to meet and maintain, and is easily faked.
A distribution deal could be around say a 40% margin depending on the level bought in at, so if these units are legitimate, then there could be quite a market opportunity for someone. Even at 20% that could be a decent investment. I had a discussion with a Taiwanese DAC manufacturer once, he could produce his units for less than $80 and he sells them at $1000+ (average). So there are big markups available, and if a distributer has a good retail connection chain and wants to put in some press and marketing work, the returns could be lucrative if the item is any good. A lot of the smaller firms are happy with selling small, less hassle, bigger markups and manageable as a small team. Distribution is different to 'sellers'.
Amazon are not resellers of Topping items, so you wouldn't need to undercut Amazon as they don't sell them. Amazon do, at times, find their own factories in China and have their own items produced , thats were their 'Amazon' basics range comes form, however unless own branded, Amazon are not strictly a distributer, they are from my understanding a retail outlet, a fulfilment house and a marketplace.
Quality can be great from China, of course it can, 80% of everything we own comes from SE Asia! I have many factories I use where the quality is brilliant, but I also have had to avoid many where the quality hasnt been, it varies hugely. I don't have any issues with CE markings not being present (or faked) if the items are of good quality I had all my LPS's checked by an electrical engineer before use (some of the LPS actually had fake components would you believe), the question posed was why there isn't a UK distributer, and I posed a potential around the CE marking not being genuine, therefore anyone taking on this companies products as a distribution deal would have to do a LOT of due diligence, which would cost time and dollars, and painful if they got at wrong, after investing in say 10,000 units.
After asking a couple of my China contacts, at this time, I do not believe Toppings certifications to be genuine, but I am more than happy to proved wrong, and to be fair, I don't care that much as I never plan to buy another of their DAC's, the first three were bad enough! Although I am curious about this D70 unit being that it uses my favourite DAC chip, so I may get one sent over on one of my next shipments.
This site contains affiliate links for which pink fish media may be compensated.
The Chronicals
Disruptor
I think the actual question posed was why there wasn't a UK distributer, I offered a suggestion why based on my experience in trading in China or a larger scale than the average 'buy a dac off the internet' person.
I definitely don't 'bash' China myself, I make my living in China, my G/F is Malaysian and my current DAC/Streamer is Chi-Fi and its great (CE legit), but I do bash to the huge amount of fake CE marks and dodgy leccytricals that emerge from small scale 'businesses' in SE Asia, considering they cause fires. Fires are not nice. My Topping Dacs I got years ago had no earthing and no markings other than Chinese Export CE marks. This was the same for the Taiwanese Dac I bought at one point, but I knew that before purchase.
The make em cheap sell em cheap on market places type of business can also cause other legit companies damage when they spend the money on doing it all properly, hence why their products may end up costing a lot more and they cannot match the price points, thus potentially losing business. The price of some of the cheap DACs from China just cannot meet EU regs.
I do bash the ASR cult though, the same way they 'bash 'really good sounding products.
Happy Holidays!
Yes sorry for my part.
Happy holidays, enjoy the D70 and let us know how you like it!
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
Are you saying the D10 sounds naff?
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
The Chronicals
Disruptor
I think so yes, but I feel the question is more, does it sound good for the money? it definitely isn't bad for £60 that's for sure.
This D70 does interest me though as it uses one of my favourite DAC chips.
Measurements don't portray the full picture of how something sounds, we can't measure everything we can hear or how we interpret, so while they have their place they are essentially irrelevant after a certain point and when it comes to the actual 'sound'.
DimitryZ
pfm Member
Thankgiving? Hello?Which holidays? Christmas is a month away yet
Hazelberry
sister
Yes, the Focus is much more practical.
Ahh, yank I see. Means nothing here.
i.j.russell
pfm Member
audiophonics.fr stock and sell the D70.