narabdela
who?
Not sure I can reply to that effectively without falling foul of forum rules.
The above post does though give an insight into a lot of what ails the present audio retail sector.
Top ten iconic turntables ...
- Thread starter dave charlton
- Start date
Not sure I can reply to that effectively without falling foul of forum rules.
The above post does though give an insight into a lot of what ails the present audio retail sector.
Feel free, but you might want to research my primary business before you do that!
Tim Jones
pfm Member
I thought that was his point tbh.
Anyway, on the point of mass, my understanding is that, for Rega, mass should be excised where it's not needed. If you need a heavier bit of X because it reduces motor vibration, gives you a better bearing housing, then that's all good.
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
Yes, precisely, but that's just engineering, isn't it? Every plane, every car, every kettle is designed with these things in mind. I suppose that was the point I was trying to reach about Harley's almost fanatical admiration for Rega's 'philosophy' of removing mass.
The webs in Tony's Thorens chassis casting illustrate that there is nothing revolutionary, or even novel, in producing a chassis which is optimised for high rigidity and low mass. Stiffer and lighter are written all over the underside of that Thorens design. It has cavities. It has a lattice of webs. In some ways it's a more expensive and sophisticated expression of the high-strength-low-mass requirement than the P10 chassis.
Martyn Miles
pfm Member
Upon reflection, I think you are correct.
Tony L
Administrator
There is remarkable logic in all aspects of the TD-124 design. It has to be my favourite of all audio components as it is just so complete and well thought out. Ergonomically it is staggeringly good; a four speed turntable with a built in strobe, fine speed adjustment, fast-start clutch for broadcast, built in ‘dinked’ 45 adaptor, it can easily be levelled from above and even has a built-in spirit level, the arm can be changed from above without moving the turntable from its plinth etc etc. Everything thought through which is astonishing given it was first released in 1957. It is all but impossible to find any deck since that can do even half of that list!
The chassis design is highly logical. They clearly realised it needed to be strong and rigid, yet they wasted no material in achieving that. I doubt the design was as ‘ideological’ as Rega, it was just another aspect of the deck that was properly thought through and engineered. It took full advantage of the injection moulding technology that was viable in such a large marketplace. I’m pretty sure a lot of modern turntables look so dumb in comparison is down to the cost of manufacturing. Injection moulding is just out of reach unless one is selling tens of thousands. Even SME grind their decks out painfully slowly on CNC machines these days. The 124, 301 etc were stamped out in their thousands every year.
The TD-124 is an amazingly complete design. One I have more respect for the longer I spend with it. The next turntable design to push a lot of these ideas further to my mind was the SL1200 MkII. There is a lot of very good thinking and engineering in that one, and whilst less impressive there are similarities in the top-chassis moulding. The clever thing in the Technics (aside from the superb direct drive system) is combining that very rigid cast chassis with a very cleverly damped rubber/plastic layered plinth and isolation feet. I’d argue it would be better from an audiophile perspective if they made it a lot lighter, but there is a lot of really clever thinking there, far more intelligent than simply throwing mass at the problem. I’m less convinced by the new fancier G variant, that is just way too much mass to my mind and it sounded like it to my ears (I owned one for a day or two and didn’t get on with it).
PS When talking about mass and rigidity we need to consider the Michell Gyrodeck. Another very clever and beautifully engineered design. FWIW I personally think the Gyro is better than the Orbe. It puts the mass where needed rather than just bung more at the problem.
berty bass
pfm Member
I'd be interested to know how the newer "massively improved upon, with modern approaches" re-issue TD-124 compares to an original.
Tony L
Administrator
Ken Micallef reviewed it in Stereophile and liked it a lot, though reading between the lines I think he preferred his original. His has a woefully bent top-platter too, it makes me cringe on his various jazz vinyl videos!
One thing that is annoying about the new one is it is sold as a system with arm, cartridge and plinth. I have a feeling this is to the extent it can’t easily be altered. As such it lacks the huge versatility of the original which can take pretty much any arm imaginable including 12” models. I don’t think it looks right either, the obviously CNC’d chassis lacks the beautiful Henry Moore-like curved form of the original, it just looks ‘wrong’ to me. I’m sure it is very good though and will clearly kill the original when it comes to noise floor (its Achilles heel).
In my 50 years experience with turntables, the best sounding ones have always been the high mass types, or ones with very heavy platters. The very best ones have been the ones that have been "tuned" together with the tonearm and a good matching MC cartridge. The only concern I have ever had regarding high mass is that I did get some acoustic feedback once with one of my high mass turntables, but this was easily rectified by using a good isolation stand. Just recently I have been using a Brinkmann LaGrange which has a 16kgs platter made from a multitude of different materials. With the matching tonearm, the sound is just stunning and reminds me of my old TW Raven Black Night...
Watched this video before the thread was started. Interesting fodder for we audiophiles (it's a nasty illness!)
As I understood the guy's logic, in selecting a turntable to demonstrate his speakers to customers, he initially appeared drawn to the LP12, but without directly criticising it, he drew an analogy between his old classic sports car, which, he said, he had upgraded, but that it still remained an old classic sports car (LP12?) whilst modern cars (P10) will necessarily, through innovation, and new materials, be logically better! He then championed Rega's low mass approach by showing us the vibrational effects on a glass of water on his kitchen unit, conclusively showing that a high mass unit transmits vibration, so low mass must be better??
Well yes, if that approach doesn't work, then Roy Gandy has wasted years of development, but that is not to say that alternative approaches (LP12) do not produce the goods. He did not say that he had tried an LP12 in his demonstrator system, just that he had been tempted to buy a used undisclosed spec of LP12, but decided not to pull the trigger on it, because of his above logic.
Perhaps should have hired/borrowed a high spec LP12, and compared to a Rega P10 in the context of his system, to see the effects, and may then have concluded that, against all his logical deductions, an LP12 (higher mass, sprung suspension) turntable, albeit with the relatively expensive modular add-ons eg. Keel/radical/Ecos SE/Karousel etc., may have better demonstrated to customers, the potential of his speaker designs? If the turntable was to be selected to best show off the speakers, then you'd think that as this is his business, that he would have have picked the best synergistic match, after lengthy auditioning, as there was such a lot at stake in convincing customers as to the merits of his speakers?
As I understood the guy's logic, in selecting a turntable to demonstrate his speakers to customers, he initially appeared drawn to the LP12, but without directly criticising it, he drew an analogy between his old classic sports car, which, he said, he had upgraded, but that it still remained an old classic sports car (LP12?) whilst modern cars (P10) will necessarily, through innovation, and new materials, be logically better! He then championed Rega's low mass approach by showing us the vibrational effects on a glass of water on his kitchen unit, conclusively showing that a high mass unit transmits vibration, so low mass must be better??
Well yes, if that approach doesn't work, then Roy Gandy has wasted years of development, but that is not to say that alternative approaches (LP12) do not produce the goods. He did not say that he had tried an LP12 in his demonstrator system, just that he had been tempted to buy a used undisclosed spec of LP12, but decided not to pull the trigger on it, because of his above logic.
Perhaps should have hired/borrowed a high spec LP12, and compared to a Rega P10 in the context of his system, to see the effects, and may then have concluded that, against all his logical deductions, an LP12 (higher mass, sprung suspension) turntable, albeit with the relatively expensive modular add-ons eg. Keel/radical/Ecos SE/Karousel etc., may have better demonstrated to customers, the potential of his speaker designs? If the turntable was to be selected to best show off the speakers, then you'd think that as this is his business, that he would have have picked the best synergistic match, after lengthy auditioning, as there was such a lot at stake in convincing customers as to the merits of his speakers?
gavreid
Pretty Words...
Rega aside, it's very difficult to see where the value is in a lot of modern decks. I include my WT Amadeus GTA there too as much as I enjoy it. With the old Thorens or Garrards it's obvious where the engineering is but a belt drive/motor combo for £1000s, possibly made in China as well, then it's get real time as far as I'm concerned. I feel the same way about the inflated prices of cartridges too with the increases over the past couple of years - for blooming consumables!
I recently put a 12v motor on my early Planar 3, with a used RB600, Neo p/s and the new round belt and it's very good indeed.
I recently put a 12v motor on my early Planar 3, with a used RB600, Neo p/s and the new round belt and it's very good indeed.
For me the classics for the UK are:
Garrard 401, 301
Thorens TD 124
Thorens TD 160
Linn Sondek (not so much the earlier Ariston as the Linn became the household name and the developed item rather than the "original" Ariston.)
Transcriptors reference
Michell Gyrodek
Rega 2/3 (originals, with the RB 200, and also those with the 250 and 300)
Dual CS 505, not because it was that great but because it was "my first hifi TT" for so many
Technics SP10
Garrard 401, 301
Thorens TD 124
Thorens TD 160
Linn Sondek (not so much the earlier Ariston as the Linn became the household name and the developed item rather than the "original" Ariston.)
Transcriptors reference
Michell Gyrodek
Rega 2/3 (originals, with the RB 200, and also those with the 250 and 300)
Dual CS 505, not because it was that great but because it was "my first hifi TT" for so many
Technics SP10
Tony L
Administrator
There is more than one valid approach! A low-mass single driver can be hugely dynamic, agile, fun, and obviously lacks all the phase and timing mess of large multi-driver speakers in huge rooms. It is all a compromise even if you are dropping hundreds of £thousands. No right answer here at all. I can see how he ended up with an ultra low mass Rega and you end up with vast high-mass turntables. You are both looking for entirely different things/have different taste. I can absolutely see the attraction of both, yet have chosen a different path to either of you for myself.
Seanm
pfm Member
Stop making me want a TD124 Tony.
Gyro vs Orbe: disagree that they just threw mass at the problem. Well that might be the crux of it for all I know but the improvements are very obvious: the Orbe is a much better-sounding deck IME, a different league even.
Tony L
Administrator
Interesting. I’ve never had the direct dem. My view is based on never having liked the Orbe (always sounds rather dead in the water to me) and almost always liking the Gyro. I’ve heard the Gyro sounding really funky and fun on many occasions. Offer me the choice of both based on what I’ve heard to date and I’d take the Gyro every time, though I accept this is a flawed dataset.
PS To my understanding they added mass to the platter, and damped the alloy subchassis with a mastic type compound. I think there were changes to the plinth too. As such a very clear mass/ideology change to my eyes. Very different decks. If it was Rega the Gyro would cost more!
Seanm
pfm Member
Ha, yes. Added mass where it counts though: the motor pod is *really* heavy, the damping compound is used judiciously and I think the platter is at least as much about material as mass. Added rigidity too (I guess?) by doubling up on the acrylic plinth (this is the SE I'm thinking of, I've never seen the "full" version), and then there's the clamping system, which is about coupling rather than mass.Interesting. I’ve never had the direct dem. My view is based on never having liked the Orbe (always sounds rather dead in the water to me) and almost always liking the Gyro. I’ve heard the Gyro sounding really funky and fun on many occasions. Offer me the choice of both based on what I’ve heard to date and I’d take the Gyro every time, though I accept this is a flawed dataset.
PS To my understanding they added mass to the platter, and damped the alloy subchassis with a mastic type compound. I think there were changes to the plinth too. As such a very clear mass/ideology change to my eyes. Very different decks. If it was Rega the Gyro would cost more!
When I swapped out the Gyro for the Orbe, with the same arm and cart, there was just no doubt in my mind that things were sounding much better: big improvements in terms of definition, timbre, bass extension, solidity and drive. Undeniably darker than the Gyro though and I know that what a lot of people like about the gyro is its "airiness". Great sense of space with the Orbe but I can't imagine anyone using the term "airy" to capture its overall character, it's just too deep and dark. "Cavernous" maybe. Of course a lot of this might be down to it being black.
The Gyro is for sure more iconic though.
dave charlton
pfm member
Or, Harley's admiration for Rega's almost fanatical philosophy of removing mass
anyway some more admiration for Rega, this time in Catalonia :-