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Tone Poet Blue Notes

Picture of Heath has also dropped to under £30. My copy was was perfect and sounds top rate, great dynamics and tonality especially for the period of the recording, but lots of people have had tracking or skipping problems on side two of this Tone Poet. Perhaps due to it being cut hot for some cartridges or a possible pressing fault from a stamper?

Edit:
Blue Note have posted this on their Facebook page about POH
“We’re aware of the complaints about the Tone Poet Vinyl Edition of Chet Baker & Art Pepper “Picture of Heath” from some customers who are experiencing skipping on side two, while for most it plays fine. We’ve looked into it and have determined there is no defect with the pressing. It is however a very dynamic recording and Joe Harley & Kevin Gray don’t use any limiting or compression in their mastering approach. That can expose the need for some adjustments to be made with particular turntable set-ups. For instance, we’ve found that customers who adjusted their tracking force and anti-skate (even slightly reducing both), and made sure their turntable is level, no longer had playback issues. We hope this helps!”
Some SH Forum hardliners still seem unconvinced that it is not a pressing fault though.
 
Excellent spot on Stick Up. Ordered at £27.32! I’m being selective on TPs, but this is one I’ve been meaning to buy, it was out of stock last time I looked.
 
poco a poco said:
Blue Note have posted this on their Facebook page about POH
“We’re aware of the complaints about the Tone Poet Vinyl Edition of Chet Baker & Art Pepper “Picture of Heath” from some customers who are experiencing skipping on side two, while for most it plays fine. We’ve looked into it and have determined there is no defect with the pressing. It is however a very dynamic recording and Joe Harley & Kevin Gray don’t use any limiting or compression in their mastering approach. That can expose the need for some adjustments to be made with particular turntable set-ups. For instance, we’ve found that customers who adjusted their tracking force and anti-skate (even slightly reducing both), and made sure their turntable is level, no longer had playback issues. We hope this helps!”
Some SH Forum hardliners still seem unconvinced that it is not a pressing fault though.
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I realise the Tone Poet approach is largely about EQ and 'tone' but I'm quite surprised that Kevin Gray doesn't use ANY limiting or compression.
 
My copy plays just fine, when I started to see complaints my first thought was how are their decks set up, vtf etc.... I wonder if the telarc 1812 would also make their careyidge mis track
 
paulfromcamden said:
I realise the Tone Poet approach is largely about EQ and 'tone' but I'm quite surprised that Kevin Gray doesn't use ANY limiting or compression.
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I’m sure the skilful compression of the original RVG cuts is what a lot of us really like about them. I view a studio master as a pre-production stage, it is not and is never intended to be the final product. There is huge art and skill in mastering, it is where the final focus and intent is sculpted. I view RVG, ‘Porky’ etc as people who unquestionably added value. I’m also convinced that as RVG was responsible for the whole process from recording through to final release he made decisions in the former stage to give him more latitude later, e.g. as stated up thread I am convinced he recorded bright to allow treble cut later in mastering. The kit metal work is too much to my ears on TPs, though bang on with RVG stamped originals. That is deliberate I’m sure. I suspect a bit of carefully applied valve compression gives that amazing force, drive and presence to the brass and kit one expects from an RVG cut too.

PS Michael45 on YouTube is on a voyage of discovery on this too. He hasn’t quite found the words yet to identify really good use of compression etc, but he is certainly hearing what I’ve heard for decades now. His recent review of Sgt Pepper Mono Box vs. UK 1st press is bang on IMO, as is his take on most recent reissues vs. original pressings.
 
In my experience as a sound engineer when tracking we aim to capture the performance and in mixing we aim to get 99.9 percent finished, deliverable you might say. I always mix to have alot of headroom so the mastering engineer has more avaible options. But mastering is the final 1% but that 1% can make an already great mix just that more special.
 
Richardtaylor said:
In my experience as a sound engineer when tracking we aim to capture the performance and in mixing we aim to get 99.9 percent finished, deliverable you might say. I always mix to have alot of headroom so the mastering engineer has more avaible options. But mastering is the final 1% but that 1% can make an already great mix just that more special.
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I think you're right in terms of the intent of the mix engineer. But for myself I wouldn't underestimate the impact a good mastering engineer can have when that means cutting for vinyl. I've been really surprised at how different various pressings of the same LP can sound - not automatically better or worse, but I think you can often hear how the engineer has made different decisions.

I've done a little bit of tracking too (mostly jazz) - but recording a digital multitrack that will be mixed later and where there's tons of headroom and a low noise floor feels like a very different thing to mixing a group live to two track tape where there's a tiny sweet spot between minimising tape noise and going into the red. With the mix being committed straight to two track there's no chance to go back and ease off the compression on a particular channel or tinker with the EQ.

I've obviously no way of knowing but it wouldn't surprise me at all if RVG, knowing he would also be cutting the record, left himself a little bit of wiggle room.

We all joke about RVG's shonky piano sound etc but when I think about how recordings were made in the 1950s I'm absolutely in awe of the skill of the engineers.
 
Richardtaylor said:
In my experience as a sound engineer when tracking we aim to capture the performance and in mixing we aim to get 99.9 percent finished, deliverable you might say. I always mix to have alot of headroom so the mastering engineer has more avaible options. But mastering is the final 1% but that 1% can make an already great mix just that more special.
Click to expand...

To my mind it is far more than 1%. I’d also argue that the studio multi-track mixdown master tends to play it safe as obviously you can’t remove overall compression once added - there is a safety aspect to it allowing additional decisions to be made non-destructively later. This is where so many audiophile reissues come unstuck to my mind as they view the studio master as the final state rather than the first press vinyl that is what people loved. Whilst I’ve not heard it yet this seems to be hugely relevant to the ludicrously expensive MoFi reissue of Michael Jackson’s Thriller which reading between the lines of the various reviews appears to have lost all what made it a dancefloor classic. They’ve ditched the compression and turned it into pretty after-dinner music for ageing audiophiles, where it should have that visceral kick that shook Studio 54 etc. That was the original artistic intent to my mind. I can think of countless examples of this including some stuff I was directly involved with - I’ve certainly heard the before/after! Getting a record cut by Porky or similar top-name mastering engineer was never a waste of money IME. There is good reason to read what is written in the run-off!

PS I’m obviously not arguing all mastering decisions are good, the ‘loudness wars’ of the late ‘90s highlights just how bad it can get when the worst instincts are followed. Mastering is certainly part of the artistic process and for me it can make or break an album.
 
paulfromcamden said:
I think you're right in terms of the intent of the mix engineer. But for myself I wouldn't underestimate the impact a good mastering engineer can have when that means cutting for vinyl. I've been really surprised at how different various pressings of the same LP can sound - not automatically better or worse, but I think you can often hear how the engineer has made different decisions.

I've done a little bit of tracking too (mostly jazz) - but recording a digital multitrack that will be mixed later and where there's tons of headroom and a low noise floor feels like a very different thing to mixing a group live to two track tape where there's a tiny sweet spot between minimising tape noise and going into the red. With the mix being committed straight to two track there's no chance to go back and ease off the compression on a particular channel or tinker with the EQ.

I've obviously no way of knowing but it wouldn't surprise me at all if RVG, knowing he would also be cutting the record, left himself a little bit of wiggle room.

We all joke about RVG's shonky piano sound etc but when I think about how recordings were made in the 1950s I'm absolutely in awe of the skill of the engineers.
Click to expand...
Yes
Tony L said:
To my mind it is far more than 1%. I’d also argue that the studio multi-track mixdown master tends to play it safe as obviously you can’t remove overall compression once added - there is a safety aspect to it allowing additional decisions to be made non-destructively later. This is where so many audiophile reissues come unstuck to my mind as they view the studio master as the final state rather than the first press vinyl that is what people loved. Whilst I’ve not heard it yet this seems to be hugely relevant to the ludicrously expensive MoFi reissue of Michael Jackson’s Thriller which reading between the lines of the various reviews appears to have lost all what made it a dancefloor classic. They’ve ditched the compression and turned it into pretty after-dinner music for ageing audiophiles, where it should have that visceral kick that shook Studio 54 etc. That was the original artistic intent to my mind. I can think of countless examples of this including some stuff I was directly involved with - I’ve certainly heard the before/after! Getting a record cut by Porky or similar top-name mastering engineer was never a waste of money IME. There is good reason to read what is written in the run-off!

PS I’m obviously not arguing all mastering decisions are good, the ‘loudness wars’ of the late ‘90s highlights just how bad it can get when the worst instincts are followed. Mastering is certainly part of the artistic process and for me it can make or break an album.
Click to expand...
Good view and thanks, compression actually is a reduction in dynamic range, but as one mix engineer has been doing, he sets up four mix buses ABCD these separate drums, guitars, spatial fx and vocals this is happening after the other buses which all have compression on as individual instrument tracks and group buses. All ABCD have compression and eq these then feed back to a final stereo bmix bus that has compression on it and sometime a parallel compression to ad more bite. Although compression reduces dynamic range careful use in said groups properly implemented creates a nice movement between instrument groups in a mix. Effectively you are mixing In to compression sweet spots. Michael brauer is the guy that figured this out. He sends his mixes out very hot. Parachutes cold play for example
 
gavreid said:
There are 4 or 5 tracks on that album with terrific dynamics but it's not the same throughout.
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True yes, the whole album utilises this ABCD but some songs I'm sure he felt didn't need to be pushed as much as others, though the album after was given to someone else, all the others he's done
 
I think one of the big factors at play here is that audiophiles have been told for years that all 'compression' is bad - understandable really following the digital loudness wars. But it's rather a simplistic approach to dynamics and conveniently forgets that RVG owned Fairchild 660 serial number #0001.
 
Tony L said:
Excellent spot on Stick Up. Ordered at £27.32! I’m being selective on TPs, but this is one I’ve been meaning to buy, it was out of stock last time I looked.
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The prices on Amazon yo-yo like crazy. If you're happy to buy via Amazon and are patient you rarely need to pay over £26 for a TP these days.
 
poco a poco said:
lots of people have had tracking or skipping problems on side two of this Tone Poet.
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The above made me a little apprehensive about ordering Picture of Heath. I was concerned that my SPU Mono GM MkII cartridge might struggle to track it given its 1mil conical stylus and 4 grams of VTF. I needn't have worried. It played the whole album without skipping a beat. :)
 
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