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The future of classical music

The long symphonic form of classical music had clearly been maxed out in the first half of the last century. Take Shostakovich, for example: he claims to written fifteen symphonies but really he only composed one and simply shuffled the notes and phrases around and, in some cases, changed keys. Shostakovich was his own greatest tribute act!
 
Too many of them foreign composers comin in. I’m a Gilbert & George man then Andrew Lloyd Webber.

Puts me in mind of Beecham, albeit on conductors :- Why do we have all these third rate foreign conductors around when we have so many second rate ones of our own?
 
The composer Howard Goodall had a really good series of programs about classical music on BBC2 a while back. He too argued that classical music disappeared up its own ar*e in the 20th century, but that popular music, especially in musical theatre and movies, took over where it had left off. He gave Leonard Bernstein’s West Side Story as an example of a great, accessible work in the classical and jazz traditions.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/proginfo/2013/10/howard-goodall-episode-6
 
He too argued that classical music disappeared up its own ar*e in the 20th century, but that popular music, especially in musical theatre and movies, took over where it had left off.

I didn’t agree with him, but I detest ‘light’ music and would prefer to stab myself in the eye with a fork than go and see a Gilbert & Sullivan or Andrew Lloyd Webber production. It just doesn’t connect with me. Give me Webern, Messiaen, Stockhausen etc every time!

I’d also argue the notion that new music challenges established norms was nothing new. I get the impression that the well documented reaction to say the first performance of Stravinsky’s superb Rite Of Spring (borderline riot) wasn’t that atypical and Beethoven and many others had people walk out of their more complex and challenging works, as obviously did many jazz musicians like Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane, Eric Dolphy, Anthony Braxton etc.

Obviously the key is the test of time and whether these new works eventually gain a better understanding and wider acceptance as their radicalism slowly seeps into the mainstream. This has certainly happened to Beethoven, Stravinsky, Berg, Webern along with all the once confrontational jazz I mention, as it has with composers such as Glass, Reich, Part, Gorecki etc who will sell out a concert hall at least as fast as the popular classics.

Obviously not all new music is good, just as not all old music was. History always sifts the good from the bad, though it can take generations to really find the value in some stuff that sounded very alien and new in its own context.
 
Strikes me, the differences here are identical to the thread in Music - Why boomers hate pop.

You either stay where you are, or move forward still remembering what came before
 
Strikes me, the differences here are identical to the thread in Music - Why boomers hate pop.

You either stay where you are, or move forward still remembering what came before

Or throw out the tradition, especially the Germanic one with its acquired odour of Third Reich, and start again. That's maybe what Stockhausen, Holliger, Lachenmann possibly, Cage possibly, were all about.

But Stockhausen, Cage, Lachenmann are old men or dead men now. They're already music's past.

The future, I think, lies with structures for improvisation. Or rather one aspect of the future. Things like this

 
The future, I think, lies with structures for improvisation. Or rather one aspect of the future. Things like this
For this kind of thing I expect the same target group as for 70's free jazz. Those who loved such things back in the day have meanwhile probably switched to other genres, well at least I hope for them. Some young music students may fall for it, but only on their way to finding their own new concepts. As such free jazz is definitely 'necessary' music, just like modern classical - but listening to this on a regular basis for decades, and regularly finding new aspects of the work ? I don't know.

Only recently, I dug out again the Beethoven piano concertos 3-4-5, every 5-10 years I have to listen to them. And every time, I hear new things in them. The Bach Chaconne ? I will need three more lives until I understand it.

It's this sort of thing - let's call it the universality of a composition - that would draw me towards modern classical music, or even classical improvisation. Failing that, it just hurts my ears for a while until I understand their structure and whatever revolutionary concepts they may contain, and from then on I can throw the record away and buy something else I want to analyse.
 
It's this sort of thing - let's call it the universality of a composition - that would draw me towards modern classical music, or even classical improvisation. Failing that, it just hurts my ears for a while until I understand the structure and from then on I can throw the record away and buy something else I want to analyse.

Though that exists in so much modern classical e.g. Arvo Part, Johansson etc. I’m sure the overwhelming majority of current composition is tonal and fully scored. I played a bit of the Barrett linked above and it sounded very ‘50s/60s to me, very much in the Cage mould, but to my mind modern classical is somewhere else now. There was certainly a backlash against 2nd Viennese tone-row (Schoenberg etc) and the controlled random (Cage) and things are kind of fusing minimalism with vastly more conventional structures now which can lead to some truly beautiful and transcendent music. I certainly think ‘modern classical’ has more to do with say ECM New Series etc as it does with Boulez, Cage, Stockhausen, Henry etc. Tonal, measured, contemplative.
 
Ah! Have you come across instrumental musique concrète, things like Lachenmann’s Gran Torso?

Just had a quick google, looks interesting. I have to admit I have huge, huge gaps in my knowledge with a lot of this stuff. There is certainly far more that I don’t know than I know!

PS Musique Concrete, Stockhausen etc was a logical avenue for me as I’ve always been interested in electronic music since discovering Tangerine Dream, Kraftwerk etc as a school kid. I’m sure this is why I find it approachable, as I do minimalism like Reich, Riley, Glass etc. I was just coming in from an entirely different trajectory to someone who grew up with Mozart, Haydn or whatever.
 
The best thing by far for getting to know about new music is a streaming service. You’re basically in a world with no canons, no signposts, and there is so much music going on, so much of it streaming, especially on Spotify. For me it’s really exciting, every day a new discovery.

Spotify and the internet opens up an Aladin’s cave, if you’re that way inclined.
 
Only recently, I dug out again the Beethoven piano concertos 3-4-5, every 5-10 years I have to listen to them. And every time, I hear new things in them. The Bach Chaconne ? I will need three more lives until I understand it.

It's this sort of thing - let's call it the universality of a composition - that would draw me towards modern classical music, or even classical improvisation. Failing that, it just hurts my ears for a while until I understand their structure and whatever revolutionary concepts they may contain, and from then on I can throw the record away and buy something else I want to analyse.

Yes, I know what you’re saying, but this universality isn’t something which is high on my personal agenda. I’m a bit dubious about the concept in fact (for example, I don’t feel as positively as you do about the Beethoven concertos, which suggests to me that universality is at least partly a question of taste.)
 
I have recently been receiving messages for an online digital season from orchestras and venues. The music offered is Beethoven and Mozart, composers that filled the venues pre virus. Are those old audiences now irrelevant? A virus vaccine would be necessary for me to attend an old live concert. So HiFi with its huge variety of music wins. Forget Goodall and Fry.
 
Blimey, don't quite know where to start with this thread.

Ok firstly, it's better to define classical music as Western Art Music. Music generally has a purpose, sacred or secular, written by a composer under patronage in order to pay the bills. Mozart was the really the first composer to break away from this, his magnificent operas are the outcome. Music genuinely written for the sake of art. This avoids the classical music/classical period confusion.

Secondly the compositional focus of Western Art Music up until the twentieth century was essentially about investigating tonality. The sonata and symphony all largely feature sonata form, which is basically an argument based on tonality, with quite a strict form. Then as the 19th century progressed the development of expressiveness and the desire to tell a story came to the fore. The writing of programme music and the development of opera. Wagner is probably the peak of this, left-motif and a desire to escape conventional tonality were his traits. The prelude to the opening of Tristan and Isolde is probably the key piece. It is in many ways keyless for chunks of time.

Schoenberg and Webern followed on from this. Investigate their early works, and the shadow of Wagner looms large, but where to go? Wagner had destroyed conventional tonality, so the next choice was to abandon it. Thus we got 12 note rows and serialism.This is all good, but along with serialism came a problem, there are only so many ways you can manipulate 12 notes without changing key. The tonal tension that music had been all about for centuries had gone. This is why their output is so small. Alban-Berg was aware of the failings and manipulated the system, he tried to include an expressive element. His operas are very challenging, but they certainly have emotional content.

Stravinsky was a key person in the 20th century, he led a change from the strings being the key instrument to the wind and brass. He was aiming for a return to expressiveness, but on a different level. The three Diaghilev ballets of 1912 were key to this. Rite of Spring is the pinnacle of this movement. Bartok created new structures, arch form, which enabled a return to tonal conflict, and many composers embraced primitivism, a desire to investigate folk music and the sounds of other cultures. Debussy years before had been besotted by the sound world of the gamelan.

Shostokovich and Prokofiev wrote music that very much reflects their time. Shostokovich's symphonies are masterpieces of the form, and are often deeply satirical, parodying that which he was forced to appreciate, or reflecting the human scale of some of the tragedies of the time. They both wrote much film music, and it's this point that is really important.There was a move back to music being expressive, of being easier to listen to. Vaughan Williams did similar. Often the smaller scale more personal works reveal the true composer. Don't forget Shostokovich was accused of 'formalism' and threatened with the gulag.

Contrast the move back away from edginess towards more beautiful and acceptable music to the work of the avant garde. Again this did it's job, but you could argue that it led 20th century music up a back alley. Henze and Stockhausen possible had a greater impact upon popular music, Cage and Ives, are really the stone in the shoe of 'classical music' It's all really interesting, but where is it going? Again once you throw out tonality where is the conflict, how do you create more extended works? How does your audience understand what is happening?

Penderecki got this. His music is fascinating, but again not an easy listen.

So, we then have the popularists. The mimimalists, the Neo-romantics, lots of really interesting stuff from Eastern Europe and Scandinavia.

My point? I guess we don't know where 'classical music' or 'western art music' is quite going. The argument really is that once Wagner wrote Tristan and Isolde, the notion of conventional tonality was destroyed, and there wasn't really anywhere further to go. Since then musicians have been searching around for a direction. I suspect our future will have lots more interesting alleyways, but less sense of a clear direction. I also imagine other centuries looked similar from the perspective of the time. From Beethoven to Schubert to Wagner is the line that springs out now. I'm not sure that would have been clear at the time.
 
Andrew Lloyd Webber.
Slightly random connection: been having a random play through a mobile Phantom of the Opera game (based on the book, fortunately). Having avoided ALW on purpose I hadn't previously noted that the story was based around the performance of Faust by Gounod. Odd point on that one to check with people who have read the book: a key point at the start of the game is that the opera house does not have an organ in it supposedly. However, when listening to the opera there is obviously a section in Act 4 (IIRC) when there is a very prominent organ section so I am not sure where that came from.

Anyway, the key point to bear in mind is that ALW had a story that was based around one of the great operas of all time and then decided to bin the existing music and write something else so is deserving, once again, of a slap.
 


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