The best audio system on earth?
- Thread starter karlsushi
- Start date
In general and not referring only to your remarks, the fundamental flaw about how unheard audio components and systems sound is the assumption that at some vague point they're just excessively expensive with no other legitimate reason for being.
About their sound no other evidence is offered because none exists. There's just something wrong up there in that price class, we somehow all know it, it has to be a fraud, and you're an idiot for not sharing my opinion. That's the general assertion.
This central fallacy is often presented in terms designed to sound scientific. Demands for proofs and generalities about rudimentary engineering principles and so on. But there are no data and there's no supporting argument and of course the stuff in the crosshairs hasn't been heard.
Whether you approve of $350k in digital front end is irrelevant to its sound. We both know this. Whether you think X is a 'mature technology' is also irrelevant. Those are opinions - generally wrong opinions at that - but they're expected to pass for and consistently substitute for actual finding, which is also an unsupported and untrue projection.
As other commenters have said, it's the new judgementalism around places like PF. What's perhaps most bizarre about it is the commingling of its utter irrationality with the sober intonations of the self-importance its conveyed with.
As for whether I've heard enough equipment to speak meaningfully on all this, your problem is that not only can I deconstruct the obvious flaw in that thinking above, I can also point to a very long list of credible experiences, collaborations, and observations with, about, and on audio that make it plain that the magical threshold you allude to is damn hard to audibly identify to the point of impossibility.
Which is why those who appeal to what they hope is a universally regarded preposterous pricing can't identify its sound either, and why they run from the task. It's just somehow self-evident instead. Has to be.
Is there an absurd pricing level? I think there is. You apparently think there is. But while apparently I'm more qualified to opine on it in real sound terms, neither of us knows exactly where it is or what it sounds like. I'm just not going to conflate my opinion with fact.
Iain Docherty
pfm Member
Sorry, but this is becoming increasingly absurd. Universal population sampling is essentially impossible for any question of real world scale. Also, why are you ascribing normative views on what people should and shouldn’t do with their money to me? I come from the position that, in a democratic society at least, once people have paid the taxes that society collectively decides appropriate, people should be free to do with their money what they want.
Iain Docherty
pfm Member
Leaving aside that my ‘immediately obvious’ point was about watches, I’ll start with mains cables, ethernet cables, many isolation products and the foo accessories charade in general. My view (and granted, it is a semi informed one because I’m no physicist) is that transducers and the speaker/room interface are likely to be by far the most important contributors to the end sound.
I’ve heard a few megabucks systems over the years, but none have struck me as anything more than incrementally better than systems at a fraction of their cost. So maybe we should have a discussion about the mathematics of the curve we think best describes the law of diminishing returns, unless hifi is somehow special in that regard as well.
Somafunk
pfm Member
This is where I sit (quite literally), sitting room with the only chair in the perfect spot and fully GIK acoustically treated with an RT of 32ms (effectively dead) and PEQ implementation through roon, I still have annoying room modes at 40Hz, 50Hz, 71Hz etc which are dealt as best I can through PEQ and the placement of my chair 2/3rds from the front wall happens to be perfectly in the Bolt spot to avoid the most troublesome room modes - it’s a small 4.4m x 3.3m x 2.4m room so don’t be thinking it’s big. According to the Bonello ratio my room modes are 1, 1, 1, 3, 5, 7, 19, ,28, 49 which is good as the ratios should be evenly increasing.
This is the sort of stuff that the crowd who call themselves “Audiophiles” should be interested in and geeking out on - the descent into audio reproduction this way is quite a bit of work to begin with but once it’s sorted then that’s it done, unless you move stuff around or introduce new speakers but it’s easy to measure and reapply PEQ settings.
Forget about some overprice/oversized monstrosity of a power cable or if a £4k power supply will make a difference, dig into the science of why/how we hear the way we do and find out the massive influence your environment makes towards your listening enjoyment/experience.
I don’t wish to hear what effect my room is adding to the sound of 120bpm techno coming from my Dynaudio Lyd 48‘s and Dynaudio 18s subwoofer
foxwelljsly
Me too, I ate one sour too.
If they played a bit more Captain Beefheart or The Sonics at hi fi shows, I might think about going.
Blackmetalboon
pfm Member
Ok, so the short version of your reply is that you believe in magic and marketing spiel.
I am prepared to pay extra on electronic goods for aesthetics, reliability, build, country of origin, features, manufacturer back up and allow for distributor/dealer mark ups. I know I pay a premium for that.
Iain Docherty
pfm Member
Oh, and if you want 'the ultimate in granularity' then you'll have to ask every individual what they think about things more than once, indeed *constantly*, because - shock revelation - people are human and therefore their perceptions, reactions to the myriad stimuli they experience and how this structures their future behaviour is... constantly changing.
And I write this on the day that this sadly happened https://www.ft.com/content/c1a7f8d1-ffd3-4454-b93e-6007d4579018
cb01
AES Member, Retired A/V Forensic Professional
Only if I'm nice in the WBR.
Wow, auto-incorrect gets me once and you really saw through my charade, huh?
You know what I actually think? That you should settle down and go find yourself some manners.
cb01
AES Member, Retired A/V Forensic Professional
Well I guess I will have to defer to your extensive personal experience on the matter.
cb01
AES Member, Retired A/V Forensic Professional
Oh dear. No, I don't. Not unless I plan on establishing an opinion regarding "every individual".
Why do you care what others do with their own money?
Garth
pfm Member
Totally agree! I also found it very depressing and I actually find this kind of total over-the-top expense kind of offensive. I think I also spotted at most one woman in the clip and the vast majority were old white guys. Nothing wrong with old white guys, I'm an old white guy but it is depressing - or maybe not - that an event like this has such a limited audience. And the music..... pedestrian and bland "audiophile-music" designed to not offend or challenge anyone in my opinion. If you really wanted to put a system through its paces how about Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra, or The Rite of Spring or something like that?
John Phillips
pfm Member
I know what you mean. I noticed that a previous instance of the show was on but I refused to go on the assumption I would see stuff that was so far over-the-top that I would not enjoy the day out. I find no attraction in promotional headlines such as "million pound systems" because over decades of listening it's clear to me that any correlation between price and quality disappears way before you get there. However, if people have priorities other than mine, OK. IMHO there's no need for strong apologists.
However, I relented this time and enjoyed the show. It was just the right size to spend a day listening, on my terms, while ignoring irrelevances.
On the Boyer room system, as demonstrated and to my ears according to my definition of "best", it was not the best audio system on earth. It sounded good but was not even the best audio system at the show. Maybe third or even fourth. And yes, many demonstrators at shows give their systems far too easy a ride making it impossible to hear how well they cope (or don't cope) when the going gets tough. Your examples are exactly right as part of my arsenal to test whether a system works properly or not.
IMHO the best sound I heard at the show was in the Symmetry Systems room. With material played by ensembles I have heard often enough in the concert hall to have a good reference against which to judge (for my ears, anyway). But then, on returning home and playing similar material through my own system I find that it's a draw. So I have no temptation from that PoV. Temptation only came from the splendid AV system in the Karma room. It made me wonder if I ought to look at sub-woofers to see if I can get more of that visceral feel you get from being close to someone playing the piano.
Yes, you are talking utter nonsense.Only if I'm nice in the WBR.
Wow, auto-incorrect gets me once and you really saw through my charade, huh?
You know what I actually think? That you should settle down and go find yourself some manners.
This is one reason why there's no "best". Do you want the MEN Arena sound, Maine Road or do you want an acoustic set in a pub? Or none? You choose.
I'm getting silly? You got childish. I've given my advice and opinion, and I remain confident in this. We could engage in an interesting conversation about what constitutes "best" and how we deal with the fact that the audio industry is mature and has made very few advances in the last 20, 30 or 50 years compared to cars, TVs or (brace yourself) computers. I have access to more computing power in my pocket than NASA in 1974, and I use it to phone my mother. Cars 50 years ago had carburettors and did 30 mpg at best. Electric cars were milk floats. TVs had CRTs and weighed a tonne. 28" was a good size. What's hifi done? The CD. Pretty good. 40 years old, but pretty good then. Computer audio. That's good. DSP. But compared to the other stuff, that's bugger all.
But you don't want to have any of these discussions, you just want to throw jibes from the sidelines. Child. That's fine. You do you. Jog on.
onlyconnect
pfm Member
I guess the perfect hi-fi system, being neutral, would do both with equal realism.
onlyconnect
pfm Member
True in a technical sense though advances in streaming are huge and wireless earbuds have come a long way. Also, the ability to go into the kitchen and say "play xyz" and have it play moments later is a big advance in usability. My current dream is how to get effective Atmos surround (or similar) in the rather awkward rooms we live in.
For sure. What I'm saying though is that streaming is a computer led bit of progress. "Play XYZ" is also computer driven. Hifi in contrast is lagging, especially amplifiers. If we had made similar levels of progress in hifi, a Quad 2 or a Leak Stereo 20 would have all the relevance of a milk float alongside a Tesla, or a 20" CRT TV next to a current LCD 80in thing. But it doesn't. A Garrard, Leak, Quad ESL system isn't like looking at an MGB alongside a modern sports car. That's before the petrol car becomes a thing of the past.
But let's develop some big chunky mains leads, eh?
That's what you would hope. A good system gets close, but we have had many years to get there and the progress is slo-o-o-o-w.