The best audio system on earth?

[Filian]

Find me a studio that uses any of this oligarch stuff. That is the point of creation. That is what the artists sign-off. Chances are these days it is a very nice big pair of ATCs, MEGs, JBLs or whatever. I’ll take that as my reference point. Proper sound engineering minus the bling, and attainable for a large number of people too.

With respect to an otherwise reasonable point, the finest audio has a unique sound and, as a top-level reviewer said recently, a rather profound effect on the listener. That's not a factor in prosound and in my decades of experience, many engineers simply don't know it exists. In fact, many engineers - suffering that technical superiority thing - actively deny it exists. And back we go to opinion over substance.

As much undue harm to the reputation of very advanced components and systems has actually come from a not-insignificant sector in professional audio where assumptions about how things work outweigh how things actually sound. The same is true for a rank of audio theorists, and of course, designers too. In that way there is no philosophical difference between professional and private practitioners.

 

[cb01]

That is most certainly actionable information that somebody could use to make a decision, just as they could base their decision on the fact that they are very expensive and sound nice, so they must be the best available, or close to that.

Tu veux que j'ecrive en francais? Je peux bien. En anglais: The large Tannoys and or ESLs would compare differently. They wouldn't lose on every front, I'd strongly suspect they would win on a couple of points. You'd ahve to try them, and I suspect further that if you took 10 people into the room individually you'd get more than one opinion as to which was best overall and best in parts. Which would you or I prefer? I wouldn't know.

$100k, $20k, who cares? I'm not interested in the oligarch stuff. As Tony says, it's often old technology in a posh frock.

You're getting silly. SO now you don't really have ANY advice to give? Nothing that could even remotely steer a decision? Odd....you seemed so confident upthread. Now, we are "strongly suspecting" and "I'd have to try them" and everybody has a different opinion?

You obviously are very ignorant about Borreson (I own none of their things and have no desire to change this in the future, btw). They are contemplating using additive manufacturing to make voicecoil assemblies, complex rear back chambers for tweeter and midrange drivers (that cannot be machined by CNC), the usage of Ti + forged carbon fiber, etc.

This is all public domain information, too. You don't have to have an opinion on everything.

 

[stevec67]

Is a diety a cannibalistic god?

No silly, he's a god who's trying to cut down a little.

 

[Tony L]

I used to be in a band in my youth and when cutting a few demos distinctly remember those mixing rooms often sounding pretty dead, it's very odd presentation of music I assume for specific mixing benefits? Or maybe I just frequented crappy mixing studios?

Yes, control rooms were pretty dead in that era, though I’ve always been very comfortable with that. I hate hi-fi in a live sounding room, I seem to hear every clattery echo, slap-back, reflection etc. It just gives me a headache real fast. I have never wanted my hi-fi to sound like some rock band playing in a pub, I don’t like that sonic aesthetic at all despite having played in several such bands. For me a studio control room sound is the ‘right’. It sounds like what you hear through a really good pair of headphones, but presented in your room. Any reverb or acoustic clues are on the recording from the mics or added via FX, they should not be your room adding its clattery echoey signature. To my ears my Lockwood monitors in my pretty well damped listening room sound very similar to my HD600 headphones. The nearfield system upstairs (either JR149s or LS3/5As) sound very much like the smaller nearfield monitors in a studio. This is exactly what I want. Exactly what I am aiming at. Others may prefer different.

 

[Iain Docherty]

After the recent Southwest Audio Fest in Dallas, a lot of people were talking about Borresen speakers. Even their stand-mounts are $100K/pair.

... apart from these ones (which are expensive enough) https://www.kronosav.com/products/borresen-01-standmount-speakers

 

[Iain Docherty]

I heard the X1's. Very impressive.

And, yes there are tons of personal motivations for why people make ourchase decisions of luxury goods. This entire hobby is a luxury. That's the news for everyone here; anything past a pair of AirPods is a luxury audio purchase.

But this hobby is also peculiar. I am also into horology and I just don't find people who buy AP, Patek, A Lange, Vacheron, etc getting absolutely grilled about their decision to purchase mechanical wrist watches that cost in excess of $300k. There just isn't the judgment or vitriol. Not sure why it is so strong in audio.

... because it's immediately obvious those objects are jewellery/status signifiers/whatever and don't perform the function of telling the time any better than a 5 quid Casio?

 

[cb01]

... because it's immediately obvious those objects are jewellery/status signifiers/whatever and don't perform the function of telling the time any better than a 5 quid Casio?

How do you know they are status signifiers? That would require you to know the motivations of the people who buy such things.

 

[Iain Docherty]

How do you know they are status signifiers? That would require you to know the motivations of the people who buy such things.

There's a not inconsiderable academic literature on these issues. One of the most interesting PhD theses I ever supervised was on luxury goods, CSR, sustainability, and customer purchase motivations. But apart from that... not a lot

 

[cb01]

There's a not inconsiderable academic literature on these issues. One of the most interesting PhD theses I ever supervised was on luxury goods, CSR, sustainability, and customer purchase motivations. But apart from that... not a lot

Those are categorical assumptions you're alluding to. I'm talking about the most granular category; the individual.

Who draws the the line between what is deemed reasonable and what isa not? Further, where is the line? A $20 Timex from a drug store surely will do just as well keeping time as a $100 Casio. Are all Casio owners idiot mini-oligarchs now that they have *obviously* overpaid for what could easily be described as a status signifier?

 

[Filian]

Who draws the the line between what is deemed reasonable and what isa not? Further, where is the line?

And then repeat for sound...

 

[Iain Docherty]

Those are categorical assumptions you're alluding to. I'm talking about the most granular category; the individual.

Who draws the the line between what is deemed reasonable and what isa not? Further, where is the line? A $20 Timex from a drug store surely will do just as well keeping time as a $100 Casio. Are all Casio owners idiot mini-oligarchs now that they have *obviously* overpaid for what could easily be described as a status signifier?

Clearly, if you want to understand the detailed motivations of every individual consumer then you have to do primary research on the motives of every individual consumer, having spoken with every individual consumer. Meanwhile, the real consumer economy functions on the basis of firms that understand how to do marketing based on the insights from the huge array of quantitative- and behavioural marketing research out there for which standard (population) stats work just fine.

 

[cb01]

Clearly, if you want to understand the detailed motivations of every individual consumer then you have to do primary research on the motives of every individual consumer, having spoken with every individual consumer. Meanwhile, the real consumer economy functions on the basis of firms that understand how to do marketing based on the insights from the huge array of quantitative- and behavioural marketing research out there for which standard (population) stats work just fine.

What makes you feel entitled to address any single audio buyer as part of a homogenous whole? Deeply curious about this 'audio borg collective' that has eluded me in the last 20+ years of audio.

 

[Filian]

What makes you feel entitled to address any single audio buyer as part of a homogenous whole? Deeply curious about this 'audio borg collective' that has eluded me in the last 20+ years of audio.

Apparently it's not "immediately obvious" after all? (Although like porn, you always know the audio borg when you see it.)

 

[Iain Docherty]

What makes you feel entitled to address any single audio buyer as part of a homogenous whole? Deeply curious about this 'audio borg collective' that has eluded me in the last 20+ years of audio.

I don’t get the agression behind terms like ‘entitled’ here. Firms need to understand their customer *base*. They might do some highly qualitative work with individuals (plural) to help analyse quant market data available to them. They don’t need to interview every single (prospective) customer to have a viable business model. As above, there’s an enormous literature of marketing (including at the Veblen end) and it is, by definition, not limited to single person case studies.

 

[cb01]

I don’t get the agression behind terms like ‘entitled’ here. Firms need to understand their customer *base*. They might do some highly qualitative work with individuals (plural) to help analyse quant market data available to them. They don’t need to interview every single (prospective) customer to have a viable business model. As above, there’s an enormous literature of marketing (including at the Veblen end) and it is, by definition, not limited to single person case studies.

I'm not emotionally invested in our discussion here. You feel empowered to group people together without talking to them....without asking any single one of them what or why they did a thing. I see some danger in that.

Business models have existed for millenia...long before the social sciences go in on the game. Business models are based on market forces and needs. We aren't talking about those things.

I am asking, again, what makes you feel empowered to ascertain why a person buys a particularly expensive item that appears to go far beyond mere utility and fitness-for-use....without speaking to that person?

That doesn't present as mildly preposterous to you???

Would you like it if other people used that mechanism to make decisions about you? I wouldn't think so, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Iain Docherty]

I'm not emotionally invested in our discussion here. You feel empowered to group people together without talking to them....without asking any single one of them what or why they did a thing. I see some danger in that.

Business models have existed for millenia...long before the social sciences go in on the game. Business models are based on market forces and needs. We aren't talking about those things.

I am asking, again, what makes you feel empowered to ascertain why a person buys a particularly expensive item that appears to go far beyond mere utility and fitness-for-use....without speaking to that person?

That doesn't present as mildly preposterous to you???

Would you like it if other people used that mechanism to make decisions about you? I wouldn't think so, but maybe I'm wrong.

There we are again… ‘you feel empowered’…

Probabilities exist so that we don’t need 100% population survey coverage to understand the world. Again, there’s a huge literature about (luxury) consumer behavior and it is enormously insightful without - obviously - it having been derived from universal surveys. The literature on the Swiss watch industry is particularly good, and it demonstrates how the sector saved itself by repositioning its products according to changing consumer motivations (which, to be fair, seem to have moved on recently at least in part from status symbolism to values transference). Looking at the hi-fi market, I think you can see similar trends. And I doubt I need to interview everyone who’s ever played a record to get useful insight into it.

 

[Woodface]

I'm not emotionally invested in our discussion here. You feel empowered to group people together without talking to them....without asking any single one of them what or why they did a thing. I see some danger in that.

Business models have existed for millenia...long before the social sciences go in on the game. Business models are based on market forces and needs. We aren't talking about those things.

I am asking, again, what makes you feel empowered to ascertain why a person buys a particularly expensive item that appears to go far beyond mere utility and fitness-for-use....without speaking to that person?

That doesn't present as mildly preposterous to you???

Would you like it if other people used that mechanism to make decisions about you? I wouldn't think so, but maybe I'm wrong.

He’s just talking about marketing & is making a lot of sense. It’s the use of data to understand cohorts etc, it’s very sophisticated now due to the insights that can be gleaned from smart phone usage. It’s obviously part of a wider business plan but is not the business plan.

Phone companies sell their data to 3rd parties. I’m afraid the horse has long since bolted.

 

[Leeken]

your logic is flawed. Two negatives don't make a positive.


On the subject of things that we may choose to believe, we've already talked about placebos. We've already talked about imagined benefits being very real for the person imagining them. If 2 people are dying but one finds comfort in prayer while the other is an atheist, who's missing out on a bit of comfort in their your of need?

Im not sure you know,when the missus tells me off for both drinking too much and staying out too late,two negatives in her book,but one positive in mine

 

[cb01]

There we are again… ‘you feel empowered’…

Probabilities exist so that we don’t need 100% population survey coverage to understand the world. Again, there’s a huge literature about (luxury) consumer behavior and it is enormously insightful without - obviously - it having been derived from universal surveys. The literature on the Swiss watch industry is particularly good, and it demonstrates how the sector saved itself by repositioning its products according to changing consumer motivations (which, to be fair, seem to have moved on recently at least in part from status symbolism to values transference). Looking at the hi-fi market, I think you can see similar trends. And I doubt I need to interview everyone who’s ever played a record to get useful insight into it.

Okay, so the word 'empowered' bothers you? What synonym doesn't offend? Let me know and I'll use that.

So far you're attempting to convince me that you simultaneously do not need to speak to every individual (because: nebulous 'market forces' reasons) to concretely know the reasons why they bought a luxury good, and then also that this person has, in some way, been represented with accuracy by other nebulous survey responses/group research/etc?

The Swiss watch industry created the quartz crisis and then returned to the roots of craftsmanship, good design, and mechanical performance. The rescue happened when Rolex was still selling a Sub for $1700. Long before the luxury shift that has been seen lately (with much price inflation being due to naked inflation in addition to market demand.

You are imputing person-specific motivations without person-specific data. I'm asking if/why this does not trouble you.

 

[cb01]

He’s just talking about marketing & is making a lot of sense. It’s the use of data to understand cohorts etc, it’s very sophisticated now due to the insights that can be gleaned from smart phone usage. It’s obviously part of a wider business plan but is not the business plan.

Phone companies sell their data to 3rd parties. I’m afraid the horse has long since bolted.

I understand what you're saying. I'm actually imminently qualified to speak on consumer data; I work daily in large datasets for buyers and sellers, at one of the largest tech companies in the world. I'm immersed in it, every day.

Data must be correctly interpreted. SO often, it's not. Which is why most market predictions fail.

Understanding market drivers via a forensic, post-mortem analysis is different than attempting to impute motivations to buyer actions or trends in real time.