I am a bit puzzled here. I thought that the gain in Teddy's amps was less. I know that Teddy's pre has a 6x gain. What's the norm for a NAIM?
Roberto
TeddyPre
- Thread starter bob atherton
- Start date
I am a bit puzzled here. I thought that the gain in Teddy's amps was less. I know that Teddy's pre has a 6x gain. What's the norm for a NAIM?
Roberto
bob atherton
pfm Member
Roberto
The gain was the same as Naim's when Teddy first rolled out the pre.
He has now reduced the gain so my normal listening level for CD's is around 9.00 - 10.00 O'clock and not about 8 O'clock
The gain was the same as Naim's when Teddy first rolled out the pre.
He has now reduced the gain so my normal listening level for CD's is around 9.00 - 10.00 O'clock and not about 8 O'clock
YNWOAN
100% Analogue
I believe it is 12x for Naim.
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
I find high gain in pre-amps a real pain. I very much like Teddy's amps and have been tempted by them for some time. However I would be looking for a pre with plenty of travel on the volume pot. A good example here are Sonneteer, who use very nice pots with full range, so you are not getting too loud already at 9 o clock.
teddy_pardo
Trade: Teddy Pardo
The PR1 has a 6x gain, which is good for a wide range of speaker sensitivities, and is already half the gain of Naim preamps.
It is very simple to reduce the gain if someone wants, but unless we are talking about 95db speakers in a small room, and very silent environment I wouldn't recommend doing it. Many phono stages have lower output levels than CD players or DACs, so it is good to have some margins.
It is very simple to reduce the gain if someone wants, but unless we are talking about 95db speakers in a small room, and very silent environment I wouldn't recommend doing it. Many phono stages have lower output levels than CD players or DACs, so it is good to have some margins.
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
Teddy, does a healthy amount of gain have sonic benefits? So many good pre-amps have a lot of gain I keep asking this question. A lot of the US made valve pre-amps have as much as 20dB, which is quite extreme. My Unison Research Unico Pre has a lot of gain too.
Personally I use a DAC that only outputs 1.5V (AS DAX Discrete; outputs direct from the chip, no opamps or the like in the way), so that's not so bad, but my phono stage has bags of gain and I find that problematic.
Personally I use a DAC that only outputs 1.5V (AS DAX Discrete; outputs direct from the chip, no opamps or the like in the way), so that's not so bad, but my phono stage has bags of gain and I find that problematic.
Hi Teddy
Yes, the 6x gain is something I could read from your web site
As I told you privately and wrote above, my speakers are around 92Db/W/m and my room is relatively small (I will be 2.5 to 4 meters from the speakers), so the NAIM hiss (which is AFAIU both due to the relative position of the pot before the main gain and also the high gain of the 321 boards (I have 321/5 in my 32.5, as well as 729 in place of the two 324 as input buffers behind the pot) is quite audible.
I am using little bridges with resistors in place of the 326/328, to attenuate about 6Db, and this allows me to listen at decent levels with the pot at 8 o'clock and louder at 9 o'clokck. This helps a bit but it is not sufficient, and of course does not help with the hiss.
If I am not mistaken, my NAP 140 has a gain of 29Db. What is the gain of your power amps?
This (and the remote, and the no need for recapping, and many other reasons, including the fact that I want components which have a simple and short signal path and are known to be transparent) are what is attracting me to the PR1 (or the i80a) - hopefully I will be able to turn the pot a bit more (could you extrapolate?) and I am replacing the power amp as well (included if i80a, or an ST60 if I opt for the three boxes solution).
A little remark, the link http://www.teddypardo.com/amplifiers/integrated/pre-details.html is not working in your site.
Roberto
Well, as far as I understood his power supplies do not rely on electrolytic capacitors.
Roberto
For me who has a modest speaker sensitivity of 85db/w its actually rather high with 9.00 to 10.00 O clock. ( I also have Teddy Pre and Teddy MB-100. My normal level is around 8.00 O clock. But then again size of room and furniture makes a difference as well. AND of course hearing ability starts to fade above 50 years old...
bob atherton
pfm Member
For me who has a modest speaker sensitivity of 85db/w its actually rather high with 9.00 to 10.00 O clock. ( I also have Teddy Pre and Teddy MB-100. My normal level is around 8.00 O clock. But then again size of room and furniture makes a difference as well. AND of course hearing ability starts to fade above 50 years old...
So what are you saying....
I'm 58 and I KNOW my hearing is pretty duff; I blame drummers for this.
I must admit that most of our listening is to fairly quiet stuff so not much volume required. This said yesterday, when Debs was out, I listened to Live Cream at considerably more volume.....
bob atherton
pfm Member
Hi Bob I knew you would bite
Hope all is well despite the hearing
Well even I who are "only" 49 suffers a bit from loss of hearing and tinnitus from a live concert in the ninetees.
Do you mean Cream from Albert hall 2005 ? A fine double CD!!
Have a nice evening
No, it was live Cream from the 60's. I also have the Vol II of live Cream but this is not so good IMHO.
I have the DVD of the recent 2005 gigs as well, this is good stuff but maybe not as good as the early material.
I was very sad when Jack Bruce passed away. He was a big influence on my playing.
RyanSoundLab
Trade: Ryan Sound Lab
mocenigo,
You're obviously handy with a soldering iron, so you can lower the gain on your 321 boards yourself by replacing one resistor on each board. There are threads around that show you how to do it. This will lower the noise you mention, too.
Another option, and not to turn this into a sales pitch, but Ryan Sound Lab Z250V output boards (replace 321) have 3 gain positions available just by moving a little jumper on the board. Each position reduces gain from the full Naim original (x13) by -10db and -20db (x4 and x1.3 respectively). This reduces output noise from the pot and amp as well as gain. Each -10db is equivalent to having to turn the volume control up 1/4 turn, e.g. brings a 9 o'clock position up to 12 o'clock, etc. With my low output MC cartridge and low efficiency speakers, I need the full gain but many others use lower settings for better resolution on their volume control.
Kit
You're obviously handy with a soldering iron, so you can lower the gain on your 321 boards yourself by replacing one resistor on each board. There are threads around that show you how to do it. This will lower the noise you mention, too.
Another option, and not to turn this into a sales pitch, but Ryan Sound Lab Z250V output boards (replace 321) have 3 gain positions available just by moving a little jumper on the board. Each position reduces gain from the full Naim original (x13) by -10db and -20db (x4 and x1.3 respectively). This reduces output noise from the pot and amp as well as gain. Each -10db is equivalent to having to turn the volume control up 1/4 turn, e.g. brings a 9 o'clock position up to 12 o'clock, etc. With my low output MC cartridge and low efficiency speakers, I need the full gain but many others use lower settings for better resolution on their volume control.
Kit
teddy_pardo
Trade: Teddy Pardo
The preamp gain is mainly important for matching the output voltage of the source and the input voltage of the power amp, but also be able to work well with a wide range of speakers, so in general it is better to have a little more than a little less.
teddy_pardo
Trade: Teddy Pardo
Hi Teddy
Yes, the 6x gain is something I could read from your web site
As I told you privately and wrote above, my speakers are around 92Db/W/m and my room is relatively small (I will be 2.5 to 4 meters from the speakers), so the NAIM hiss (which is AFAIU both due to the relative position of the pot before the main gain and also the high gain of the 321 boards (I have 321/5 in my 32.5, as well as 729 in place of the two 324 as input buffers behind the pot) is quite audible.
I am using little bridges with resistors in place of the 326/328, to attenuate about 6Db, and this allows me to listen at decent levels with the pot at 8 o'clock and louder at 9 o'clokck. This helps a bit but it is not sufficient, and of course does not help with the hiss.
If I am not mistaken, my NAP 140 has a gain of 29Db. What is the gain of your power amps?
This (and the remote, and the no need for recapping, and many other reasons, including the fact that I want components which have a simple and short signal path and are known to be transparent) are what is attracting me to the PR1 (or the i80a) - hopefully I will be able to turn the pot a bit more (could you extrapolate?) and I am replacing the power amp as well (included if i80a, or an ST60 if I opt for the three boxes solution).
A little remark, the link http://www.teddypardo.com/amplifiers/integrated/pre-details.html is not working in your site.
Roberto
Our amplifiers have very low background noise, you really have to put your ears very close to the speakers to hear anything.
The gain of our power amps is the same as Naim power amps, but the gain of our pre is half.
I'll fix the link, thank you.
teddy_pardo
Trade: Teddy Pardo
The main issue with electrolytic capacitors is that when they get older their internal resistance (ESR) increases, so they become less effective, like an old battery.
We use electrolytic capacitors but we don't rely on them to do the filtering job, we can therefor use smaller capacitors with higher ESR, and even when they get old and their ESR increases it has no effect on the power supply performance (we have compared low and high ESR capacitors, there was no difference). The filtering job is done by long life Tantalum capacitors and film capacitors, and even there we use 100K resistors in the filter, so even if the ESR increases up to 0.1 Ohm it is totally negligible.
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
Why does it help the pre work with a wider range of speakers Teddy? This puzzles me because I've generally used fairly inefficient speakers like Harbeths and Quad ESLs, but I am always irritated by the amount of gain in my system.
teddy_pardo
Trade: Teddy Pardo
Maybe your power amplifier has a too high gain?
With our pre/power and speakers, I usually listen at around 11 O'clock, but it happens that I play loud, or listen to silently recorded music and then I go up to 1 O'clock.
Most phono stages allow you to set the gain, so if it's too high you can resolve the problem this way
With our pre/power and speakers, I usually listen at around 11 O'clock, but it happens that I play loud, or listen to silently recorded music and then I go up to 1 O'clock.
Most phono stages allow you to set the gain, so if it's too high you can resolve the problem this way
Elephantears
Trunkated Aesthete
It's not just that. I've found this with most of the amplifiers I've tried. I listen relatively near-field, in a medium sized room, and I don't feel most pre-amps are made with that in mind. Perhaps I should be looking at tvc passive designs.