awkwardbydesign
Officially Awesome
I found my with my old Fireblade I had to really weight the inner peg and hang off to get it to turn. The SV just does, especially with the back raised 10mm. Top tip; fit a steering damper if you do that!
Starting to get warmer... any other motorcyclists gearing up on here?
- Thread starter RichShortland
- Start date
RichShortland
pfm Member
I was doing a trackday at Brands, and the instructor I nabbed for a tow-round was on a racing SV. As I had previously had a "moment" braking for *Paddock Hill I asked him where he braked. He said he didn't! Just knocked it down to 5th and went. It worked! Scary first time, but the big bikes that had shot past me on the laughingly named "straight" got a shock as I whizzed past them.They them spent half a lap getting past again. However, that nearly killed me at Pembrey. Did the same at Honda, and the muppet on the thou who thought he could pass me on the brakes suddenly seemed to stop right in front of me. Doing about a ton and accelerating, found me in hospital with a badly broken collarbone and my knee ground to the bone. The bike was fine though, it always crashed well. But getting home was a saga in itself.
Riding on the roads I now have no desire to see how fast I can go; 150 on a Blade on a bumpy Welsh road cured me of that anyway.
*I always wanted to ride Paddock Hill after walking up it once. Until you do that it's hard to comprehend just how steep it is.
That's very cool - I've never done Brands (north west based so it's v far..). Some insight from someone who knows what they are doing is really helpful. I've had a few good sessions with the free instructors on various trackdays and it helped me come on a long way.
Interesting, thanks gents. So it's a *bit* like the twin circuit bit on a car in that if one circuit fails you still get braking to both ends. Interesting also that you can also just ignore the foot brake and squeeze the handlebar lever and have the thing pull up in a straight line without the back trying to overtake the front.
The proportioning valve is something I have come across in cars. All cars have them of course, but nobody knows they are there and on cooking cars they just set the bias to be front heavy a the factory and have done. On the Caterham there's a manual proportioning valve on the race models. I did hear tell of a proportioning valve that altered its setting according to the braking and deceleration forces, because of course under gentle braking you want it neutral or slightly biased to the rear so that the car stays in a straight line, but under hard braking when the weight shifts to the front you want the back brakes to back right off so that you don't get the back locking up before the front. Good scheme to put it on bikes.
RichShortland
pfm Member
I'm really good...
Potted history since I last saw you:
Finished uni, married Uni girlfriend, career in construction/engineering marketing, two kids, made redundant three times, moved to healthcare, then separated/divorced, moved back to Manchester, joined NHS Blood and Transplant, girlfriend (now fiance) moved in with her three kids, moved to People function and having a ball at work (should have done it years ago)... I think that's the big stuff!!
Al the above is punctuated with falling off motorbikes at various circuits across the country, cycling and listening to some music on a nice hifi
RichShortland
pfm Member
Agreed it does work quite well, despite the weight and complexity.
If anyone was going to get it right, it would be Honda... but it's no substitute for learning how to use conventional brakes properly.
Yeah, fair enough, but what were you doing prior to just the last couple of years?Potted history since I last saw you:
Finished uni, married Uni girlfriend, career in construction/engineering marketing, two kids, made redundant three times, moved to healthcare, then separated/divorced, moved back to Manchester, joined NHS Blood and Transplant, girlfriend (now fiance) moved in with her three kids, moved to People function and having a ball at work (should have done it years ago)... I think that's the big stuff!!
Al the above is punctuated with falling off motorbikes at various circuits across the country, cycling and listening to some music on a nice hifi
SteveG
pfm Member
I found the sequence from Duffus (at the end of the start finish straight) through to the chicane very tricky to get right and usually cocked it up somewhere. You then have a fast section to the very sharp and uphill final hairpin where you seem to be heading straight for the fence and have to be looking up and over your shoulder to see where the track goes. I always ended up over-braking into the hairpin and almost coming to a stop before turning in. I did a track skills session there where both the instructor and I were on CBR600's. Despite his being a race bike and mine just being a standard road bike, my bike was newer (one of the first of the fuel-injection CBR's) and much faster. So every lap I'd pass him on the straight(ish) approach to the hairpin, but he'd always pass me under braking and was usually half way down the start finish straight before I got onto the start of it.
That sort of stuff was always a salient reminder of how mediocre my bike skills were (and they certainly won't have gotten any better since) so despite generally being quicker than the guys I rode with on the road, I didn't get myself into the sort of painful trouble that occurs when ambition overtakes skill!
SteveG
pfm Member
My CBF1000GT has linked brakes and, in combination with ABS, it works very well in practice. With my CBR it was better not to go anywhere near the back brake when "making progress" in the dry circuit, so I'm not sure it'd be as keen on having someone other than me making decisions about when the back brake should be used.
RichShortland
pfm Member
Agreed - I have lifted the rear before now braking on track, and certainly often had it moving around with just the little bit of engine braking getting past the slipper clutch, so I really wanted control over the rear brake...
-alan-
pfm Member
^ On the 'braking and entry' thing... a question for the track vets:
The track day training I did taught the Keith Code/California Suoerbike style where all the braking was done prior to corner entry / off the brakes / back on a feathered throttle/ lean and steer towards the apex. I know the logic behind separating the braking and cornering forces on the tyre ..but.. never found it comfortable coming off the brakes and having the front end rise, and going back on the throttle - all before you turn in. (I used to ride motoX as a kid btw - so not a total stranger to having one end or the other (or both) sliding at times, but preferably not on tarmac )
I always find trailing a wee bit of front brake into the corner with the forks compressed makes the bike more planted as it turns in - and in truth would be my method of choice on the roads, where I'm always loath to get back on even a partial throttle until I can see what's past the next apex.
Qn - As a track day noob, should I just park the reservations and go with the brake/stop/part-throttle/lean..or stick with what feels a lot more natural ?
The track day training I did taught the Keith Code/California Suoerbike style where all the braking was done prior to corner entry / off the brakes / back on a feathered throttle/ lean and steer towards the apex. I know the logic behind separating the braking and cornering forces on the tyre ..but.. never found it comfortable coming off the brakes and having the front end rise, and going back on the throttle - all before you turn in. (I used to ride motoX as a kid btw - so not a total stranger to having one end or the other (or both) sliding at times, but preferably not on tarmac
)I always find trailing a wee bit of front brake into the corner with the forks compressed makes the bike more planted as it turns in - and in truth would be my method of choice on the roads, where I'm always loath to get back on even a partial throttle until I can see what's past the next apex.
Qn - As a track day noob, should I just park the reservations and go with the brake/stop/part-throttle/lean..or stick with what feels a lot more natural ?
RichShortland
pfm Member
^ On the 'braking and entry' thing... a question for the track vets:
The track day training I did taught the Keith Code/California Suoerbike style where all the braking was done prior to corner entry / off the brakes / back on a feathered throttle/ lean and steer towards the apex. I know the logic behind separating the braking and cornering forces on the tyre ..but.. never found it comfortable coming off the brakes and having the front end rise, and going back on the throttle - all before you turn in. (I used to ride motoX as a kid btw - so not a total stranger to having one end or the other (or both) sliding at times, but preferably not on tarmac
I always find trailing a wee bit of front brake into the corner with the forks compressed makes the bike more planted as it turns in - and in truth would be my method of choice on the roads, where I'm always loath to get back on even a partial throttle until I can see what's past the next apex.
Qn - As a track day noob, should I just park the reservations and go with the brake/stop/part-throttle/lean..or stick with what feels a lot more natural ?
For me, and this is just my view/how I see it, on track I spend all my time simply managing tyre grip.
For example, I hang off to help keep the bike and tyres more upright so I can get on the throttle sooner and carry more corner speed.
I transfer my weight to help balance out the demands on each tyre when braking/accelerating.
No dramatic fully loading or unloading anywhere if I can help it.
For your scenario of braking/turning/mid corner/apex/exit the whole time I'm looking to manage the loads on the tyres. So for me this means yes, heavy braking when upright to shed speed, but then trailing into the point just before apex, all the time gradually releasing the brake in line with increasing lean angle and perceived load on the front tyre. This is not to lose speed but to maintain as constant a load on the tyre as possible so it grips. Nothing on/off. If it isn't loaded as you ask it to turn it'll simply wash out. Does that make sense?
Oh and definitely go with your gut feel. It's usually right. And relax! If you can't flap your arms nice a losely at any point, you're holding on too tight...
awkwardbydesign
Officially Awesome
Try the recommended method. If you only do what you are used to you won't progress much. Personally, when I do brake, I try to get it all done before turn-in. Although I did try some serious trailbraking once at the old Anglesey. I noticed an instructor ahead of me trailbreaking, so next lap I tried it. As I let the brake off the bike leant over even more and I had to accelerate to stop it falling over. I found myself with my whole leg, ankle to knee, on the ground, tight against the fairing! Both wheels drifting and the pit wall (we were riding the track the wrong way that day) looming ever closer. I remember thinking afterwards, so that's what the MotoGP riders do every corner. And I'm not going to try it again, thank you very much!
So get it done before you corner!
awkwardbydesign
Officially Awesome
Personally, I had to get over my gut feel in the early days. I think your technique is for someone with a bit more confidence.
And I joined an IAM trackday once (so slow!) and they had us all flapping. Hilarious.
But one of my favourite memories is overtaking my son at Gerrards and waving to him, as I slid under him. Poseur!
-alan-
pfm Member
Yeah it makes perfect sense. It's the way I drive on track - and the way I feel most comfortable riding a bike on the road.
I've tried that method outlined above on and off track AwkBD - and could never get on with it. One of the reasons I floated it here is the received wisdom round these parts says that's the way to do it, but I suspect that comes from the coaching methods adopted by the guys at the only real track-venue in the South. But I know the preferred approach of the by-now long-gone Freddie Spencer training franchise in the states was to teach and encourage the trail-braking approach from the outset.
I know for sure there's a trade off in terms of risk of being cack-handed and asking too much from the tyre. I think the sensible approach would be to try both
SteveG
pfm Member
I was very unimpressed with IAM (although that might been to do with the local group rather than a general issue, although all the folks I know that declared themselves IAM advanced drivers were, without exception, terrible drivers) and went with RoSPA instead, which included doing a skills development course at Knockhill which was good fun as well as being educational.
I did some advanced skills stuff with the police as well and their approach (which seemed to mostly be to avoid using the brakes) was very impressive on fast, flowing A-roads but a lot less so on B-roads. On one section of the latter I dropped the police instructor by a long way (long enough that when I stopped for him to catch-up I was thinking about going back to see if he'd fallen off as he took so long) despite not braking any speed limits and being on my Deauville (I didn't trust myself on a sports bike with a policeman following me!) and him being on a Pan-European (which didn't seem to be all that well maintained!). Of course when he asked me to follow him he was breaking the speed limit by a lot all the time, so I had to do the same to keep up. I was worried about entrapment...
wow&flutter
pfm Member
I got the Ace at the time (2001) Yamaha had both the new R1 and the Ace on sale at the same time. There were some stupid deals available, I think I paid less than £6k new for it. As I said although heavier than the Blade and R1 it felt more stable to me. The Blackbird felt like it needed a bit more input to get it round bends and the journeys I was doing at the time it really would have been wasted.
When I bought this GSX I looked into used Blackbirds but they almost all had big big miles but almost all still looked great which is a credit to their build quality. Only negatives I could find with the used bikes for sale were the exhaust headers were prone to rusting? I think it would have been just too much bike for me again for my requirements.
Only four bikes have gone across my radar recently that I fancy test riding. The Suzuki SV650 (again), Triumph Speed Twin, Honda CMX1100 and the Yamaha XV950. All have relatively low seats, though it’s hard to argue against the SV when it’s £3-£4K cheaper than the other three! I’ve said before, a revamp of the old SV1000S is maybe what I’m looking for and with modern engineering they could even reduce it to a 900. Vtwin with 100 brake and under 200kg, what’s not to love.
SteveG
pfm Member
I have a weird thing against the SV650 which isn't grounded in logic, but more in the fact that so many of them were crashed by folks in the group I rode with. They were an exceptionally popular "first big bike" (with good reason), which was of the course the reason behind the crashes rather than anything wrong with the bike. My first big bike was also a 650cc V-twin - the Honda Deauville - and for a number of reasons I preferred that to the SV650. Shame they don't make it any more as I kept mine for 10 years, commuted on it in all weathers, and it was an excellent bike.
There aren't that many bikes that interest me at the moment, not even from Honda, so if I was replacing my CBF I suspect it'd be with a BMW as there are a few interesting bikes in there range. When my son passes his test I'm also thinking a BMW as his first big(ger) bike - their G310GS.
RichShortland
pfm Member
I've been thinking about an SV650 as a track bike as they race them so there's lots kicking about that are track sorted. Not sure if I'd miss the go of a bigger bike though...
My first 'proper' bike was a Honda 650 Bros, so the same engine as your Deauville in an alloy frame with chain drive. It was fantastic. I've had a few over the years and I really wish I'd kept one. I did also a John O'Groats to Lands End ride in 24 hours on an NTV650 as part of a Cancer Research challenge with Performance Bikes. Part of the rules were you had to buy the bike for £300 so it was a nail. It broke down on the way up to Scotland for the start, but then never missed a beat for the next 1500 miles of the trip.
RichShortland
pfm Member
Yeah it makes perfect sense. It's the way I drive on track - and the way I feel most comfortable riding a bike on the road.
I've tried that method outlined above on and off track AwkBD - and could never get on with it. One of the reasons I floated it here is the received wisdom round these parts says that's the way to do it, but I suspect that comes from the coaching methods adopted by the guys at the only real track-venue in the South. But I know the preferred approach of the by-now long-gone Freddie Spencer training franchise in the states was to teach and encourage the trail-braking approach from the outset.
I know for sure there's a trade off in terms of risk of being cack-handed and asking too much from the tyre. I think the sensible approach would be to try both
All the braking in a straight line is the safest bet. Not the quickest, but least risky. You can help avoid the forks springing back up at you problem by being gentle on letting the brakes off and also a little more rebound damping if you have adjustable forks.
Confidence is so important though. If you feel comfortable, you'll build speed.