Zu have a pretty complex, convoluted set of instructions for positioning their speakers that if I recall seem similar to the linked video. I set my current Ergo IX' s up based on room dimensions and bass nulls etc. and imaging is really good when sat in the optimum position but moving side to side upsets it, so may have to try playing around with the positioning again. Never tried adjusting rake, but that was in the Zu instructions as well.
Speaker coupling - it's an actual thing
- Thread starter windhoek
- Start date
windhoek
The Phoolosopher
The one thing that's abundantly clear now is that the music sounds much more musical. I know that might sound a little obvious if not more than a little pretentious, but everything sounds much more musical. Everything all just hangs together so well now that everything the music sounds like an actual performance.
James
Lord of the Erg\o/s
Relative phase between drivers on a loudspeaker affects how the crossover sums. But whether you are seated equidistant to a pair of loudspeakers or not makes bugger all difference to phase, absolute or relative.
awkwardbydesign
Officially Awesome
I just watched the Jim Smith video and measured my speakers. 100" apart and 144" to my ears. So if I move the speakers to 120" apart I will have 83%. But I can't move my seat, which is back against the wall, and that is his first step. But I will try to move the speakers, despite them weighing ~70kg and on sprung feet! Running out of room though, as we have to have access to stuff behind them.
Years ago, I think when I had Jordan* drive units, I found that toeing them in to cross over well in front of me gave a wide sweet spot, but made the soundfield very narrow and shallow. Setting them straight ahead fixed that, but made the sweet spot literally into a spot! Yer pays yer money and takes yer choice.
* Ted recommended that anyway, as his drivers had a bright top end, and sounded smoother well off axis.
Years ago, I think when I had Jordan* drive units, I found that toeing them in to cross over well in front of me gave a wide sweet spot, but made the soundfield very narrow and shallow. Setting them straight ahead fixed that, but made the sweet spot literally into a spot! Yer pays yer money and takes yer choice.
* Ted recommended that anyway, as his drivers had a bright top end, and sounded smoother well off axis.
ToTo Man
the band not the dog
I've just checked mine and I'm at 90% give or take, so too close to an equilateral triangle according to Mr Smith.
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Tony L
Administrator
I prefer an equilateral triangle, but one needs to factor some triangles are just too big for some speakers. Go too wide/far for the size of speaker and the centre falls apart. I think this is the point some start suggesting getting further from the speakers than the width. I’m personally not a fan of this as I do like a proper 3d soundstage, not the ‘some stuff happening over there’ thing getting too far away creates. My ‘real’ is the studio control room, that’s what I’m trying to recreate, and most I’ve been in look like equilateral triangles to me both for mains and near-fields. Very close to anyway.
tuga
Legal Alien
Even though I agree that the triangle should be equilateral or isosceles with with the listener slightly farther I don't see how distancing yourself a bit more from the speakers than they are from each other is required to "achieve optimal "coupling" between the speakers at lower midrange frequencies".
You've measured your speakers in the room hundreds of times and know as well as I do that optimal response has nothing to do with the distance to the speakers but with relative positions.
Basic rules get the most out of the speakers (with the caveat that getting the most out of the speakers might not produce the most enjoyable results to some people):
a) set the speakers and listener symmetrically in the room forming an equilateral triangle or isosceles (but with the listener only slightly farther)
b) keep the speakers away from corners (unless they're one of the few designs meant to go in corners, but then they both should go in the corner as per 'a)')
c) use the short wall setup
d) don't sit in the middle of the room or with the back of the chair/sofa against a wall
e) determine the best speaker and listener position by using a microphone
f) find out the optimal listening axis by measuring or looking the speaker's directivity (horizontal and vertical response) measurements
g) place the speakers against the back wall only if they have environmental controls or you are able to EQ (unless they're one of the few designs meant to go against the back wall, and as per 'a)')
h) add soft to floor and hard (diffusing) funishings to back and side walls in early reflection zones
ToTo Man
the band not the dog
My posting a link to Jim Smith's approach doesn't mean I agree with it.
wulbert
pfm Member
Yeah, perhaps not a good place to stuff a hiking sock or sponge. My parent's house had the exact same gas fire. Great heat off it, but it eventually gave off carbon monoxide and got condemned.We used to have a gas fire that resonated like mad. Too many parts to damp them all.
wulbert
pfm Member
Since you've been in control rooms, maybe you can answer a question I have. Do recording engineers typically try to create a sound-stage, with various instruments deliberately positioned at certain points on the virtual "stage"? Are they trying to create the illusion of the musician's being present in the listener's room? Or is it more about just spreading out the various elements around so they don't overlap each other?
Tony L
Administrator
Depends entirely on the producer/engineer, band and context. Really no right answer here, artistic intent is clearly a variable. Most jazz and classical aims for a ‘virtual stage’, though even there one can often hear wide stereo pianos and drum kits from the rock/pop drum-stool perspective (even ECM do this, which pisses me off in jazz!). Get further into rock, electronica etc and anything goes, e.g. Radiohead, Flaming Lips, Squarepusher etc. The key for me is most rock albums are not and were never intended to be heard as a gig, e.g. Abbey Rd, Electric Ladyland, DSOTM, Aja, Unknown Pleasures, Kid A etc could only exist in the studio. There are an abstraction by design. Created part by part with all the tools of the time and are conceptually no different to say, Computer World, To Pimp A Butterfly, the current Raye album etc. There is no ‘real’ here, the studio is the point of artistic creation and realisation. As such they can only be viewed as artworks, not compared against any fixed reality.
Even the stuff audiophiles regularly cite as a reference are anything but, e.g. one of the videos upthread used Norah Jones as an example. Which album wasn’t mentioned, and I’m only familiar with the first one, but if you listen to it through a good system or on headphones it becomes very clear just how many vocal layers and FX channels are used to create the vocal track. There is hardly ever only one Norah. Maybe never. It is all double-tracked, layered etc. Very cleverly done, very good, but if a system makes it sound like Norah is sitting in front of you singing it is missing a lot of information. There is way, way more going on than that!
Super elves! I just missed a pair on audiogon a Decade ago How are they? only heard once but loved them!I swing the other way but my speaker stands are my other speakers (don’t tell Linn).
It wasn’t just Super Elves, my ProAc Tabs sounded really good on Ikea stands.
I think this thread is about what I was trying to describe what my audio physic Virgos can do when everything is perfect. It can be astonishing.
But after the amazement subsides, you really can't live with listening like that. And off to Sonos and the kitchen it is with some Gigondas- And it also sounds great.
But after the amazement subsides, you really can't live with listening like that. And off to Sonos and the kitchen it is with some Gigondas- And it also sounds great.
windhoek
The Phoolosopher
I was listening to Thriller last night with my eyes closed and at times, the soundstage seemed to extend way beyond the speakers. So I came up with a novel way of checking this out: with my eyes still closed, I raised my arms out and pointed them in the direction of the farthest edges of the soundstage. My left arm was pointing towards the Fender strat hanging on the left wall, a good metre away to the left of the left speaker, while my right arm was pointing towards the bay window a good metre away to the right of the right speaker; it was actually pointing towards the cafe across the road, but you know what I mean. I'm not sure this experiment means anything as it only helps to confirm what I already knew: that the soundstage extends way beyond the physical location of the speakers.
I know this is just another aspect of the great sonic illusion... but with everything else, it all adds up to make the new listening experience highly musical and extremely enjoyable.
I know this is just another aspect of the great sonic illusion... but with everything else, it all adds up to make the new listening experience highly musical and extremely enjoyable.
windhoek
The Phoolosopher
Fwiw, I've had my KLHs for just over three months and all I did when they arrived was place them where the Lintons were situated previously, give or take a few cm here or there. They sounded pretty good where they were but I was sure there was room for improvement as they're quite different to the Lintons in a number of ways. But how they've ended up sounding is pretty much in the realm of beyond my wildest dreams, hence this thread.
Alex S
carbon based lifeform
Super Elves are great if you drive them with something like a pair of Dynavector HX1.2s but not exactly cost effective. Then they fill an average room and people just laugh when you remove the grills and examine the tiny drivers.
They are in a pretty short list of speakers I wish I’d kept although nostalgia plays a big part. My head would certainly get a pair of Shahinian Arcs and something like a NAP 180 instead.
Nonetheless, it’s a real shame ikea no longer makes their stands. Any bookshelf speakers I tried with them sounded different and usually for the better compared to conventional height high mass stands.