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Speaker cables.

Foxman50 said:
22 gauge, thats 0.326mmsq, that must be less than bell wire. Yes it will carry a signal, but ive yet to hear any decent sounding cable this thin, but hey who knows.
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47 lab uses a single strand of 0.4mm dia. I make that 0.125mm sq. You can get the whole kit for only $800. I'm going to rewire the whole house in it.
 
John Phillips said:
Different loudspeaker cables do, indeed, have measurably different resistance, capacitance and inductance. I am sure that's not in dispute.

The cable's electrical characteristics, in combination with the output impedance of the amplifier and the impedance of the loudspeaker will cause a non-flat frequency response. I am sure that's not in dispute.

The question seems to be whether this is useful, desirable or even audible.

In the July 1993 issue of Audio, Fred Davis, the author of a published AES paper on loudspeaker cables reproduces the frequency responses from his AES paper for various amplifier / cable / loudspeaker combinations. The article is here (2 Mbyte PDF). See fig. 8 onwards. You will find "normal electrical parameters" in this article for a range of cables.

The impairments are undoubtedly small. The author writes in the Conclusions "for average systems and short cables, these differences are at the threshold of audibility". In the July 1994 issue, Edgar Villchur of Audio Research disputes this. The article is here (1 Mbyte PDF). Villchur quotes measured just noticeable differences that are higher than the differences Davis reveals.

It seems that we are at a disputable point on the "audible or not?" question. And moving loudspeakers around in a real room will certainly make a bigger difference than changing cables.

Given the small magnitude of the changes a cable might make and the uncertainty over whether any particular cable will do what you want or not, it might be much more sensible to adjust the loudspeakers' toe-in to achieve this.
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Thanks John for the links, not had chance to read through them as yet.

Maybe you raise a good point, do we all hear the same. what I find audible maybe someone else cannot or vice versa.
 
Purité Audio said:
Firstly you have to establish whether you are actually hearing differences, hence the need for unsighted comparisons.

Keith
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OK OK I give in, following unsighted blind listening tests to establish you are actually hearing a difference. Once proven I do wonder if we all hear the same and i'm not referring to hearing loss.
 
Foxman50 said:
OK OK I give in, following unsighted blind listening tests to establish you are actually hearing a difference. Once proven I do wonder if we all hear the same and i'm not referring to hearing loss.
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Hi, for a long time I've considered the point as to whether we all hear the same particularly tonally.
I think it is pretty certain that we don't as we are all different (women certainly hear differently they can't stand higher frequencies in general.) I can be listening to a track and it's a little bright, then I swallow and suddenly there is bass. And that's just me.
Ear canals are all different and so would let different frequencies in for different people.
So the best that we can do is select our systems to suit ourselves as they won't suit everybody.
 
john & Jake said:
Hi, for a long time I've considered the point as to whether we all hear the same particularly tonally.
I think it is pretty certain that we don't as we are all different (women certainly hear differently they can't stand higher frequencies in general.) I can be listening to a track and it's a little bright, then I swallow and suddenly there is bass. And that's just me.
Ear canals are all different and so would let different frequencies in for different people.
So the best that we can do is select our systems to suit ourselves as they won't suit everybody.
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I agree, is this not a valid reason for manufacturers to develop various sounding cables to compensate for us and our hearing. Maybe one day they will develop a measuring device for our brains that will detail fully our perception of music and what we are actually hearing.
 
Do the cable manufacturers specify exactly how each of their cables is going to modify the sound from transparent?
Keith
 
who knows, maybe they just produce something and say that's sounds good and put it to market. Leave it to us to decide.
 
Maybe they just make cable the huge majority of which is audibly transparent, invent some BS marketing and charge a small fortune for it?
Keith
 
john & Jake said:
Hi, for a long time I've considered the point as to whether we all hear the same particularly tonally.
I think it is pretty certain that we don't as we are all different (women certainly hear differently they can't stand higher frequencies in general.) I can be listening to a track and it's a little bright, then I swallow and suddenly there is bass. And that's just me. .
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So true. I guess it is old age for me but swallowing/jaw/ear effects can be immediate. I do dislike electronic bass at live events, but acoustical bass is fine. My equipment is chosen to reflect that, especially cables like mogami, which to me sound neutral.
 
Foxman50 said:
Thanks John for the links, not had chance to read through them as yet.

Maybe you raise a good point, do we all hear the same. what I find audible maybe someone else cannot or vice versa.
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A few years ago I listened (not blind), one per day, to several different types of cable between my Quad 909 and Proac D15 loudspeakers. Not very well controlled, of course, but I was unable to grasp any clear differences.

Of course I may have cloth ears or the equipment may not have been sufficiently high resolution. I also ran simulations in a circuit simulator knowing the cables' characteristics, the amplifier's output circuit and a guess at the speakers' crossover from a published clone design. Frequency response differences existed but were well within the small range published by Davis. I decided this was nothing I needed to be concerned about (but others might differ, of course).

So I sit on the sceptic's side of the fence WRT loudspeaker cables but just leaving open the possibility there may be some situations I haven't tried where a difference may be audible. However even then the equally knotty question would remain: "if they're different, which, if either, is better?"
 
John Phillips said:
Different loudspeaker cables do, indeed, have measurably different resistance, capacitance and inductance. I am sure that's not in dispute.

The cable's electrical characteristics, in combination with the output impedance of the amplifier and the impedance of the loudspeaker will cause a non-flat frequency response. I am sure that's not in dispute.

The question seems to be whether this is useful, desirable or even audible.

In the July 1993 issue of Audio, Fred Davis, the author of a published AES paper on loudspeaker cables reproduces the frequency responses from his AES paper for various amplifier / cable / loudspeaker combinations. The article is here (2 Mbyte PDF). See fig. 8 onwards. You will find "normal electrical parameters" in this article for a range of cables.

The impairments are undoubtedly small. The author writes in the Conclusions "for average systems and short cables, these differences are at the threshold of audibility". In the July 1994 issue, Edgar Villchur of Audio Research disputes this. The article is here (1 Mbyte PDF). Villchur quotes measured just noticeable differences that are higher than the differences Davis reveals.

It seems that we are at a disputable point on the "audible or not?" question. And moving loudspeakers around in a real room will certainly make a bigger difference than changing cables.

Given the small magnitude of the changes a cable might make and the uncertainty over whether any particular cable will do what you want or not, it might be much more sensible to adjust the loudspeakers' toe-in to achieve this.
Click to expand...

Well after wading through these i am a little disappointed. The conclusion "Cable differences are measurable differences, but are those differences audible? The answer is a definite maybe" well thats conclusive.
 
Foxman50 said:
You old cynic Keith :D
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But don’t forget, Keith has his agenda. He is in the HiFi business. While he doesn’t sell “expensive audiophile cables”, he does sell “expensive DSP based solutions”.

Of course, one day this may change, and then the rhetoric will undergo a sea-change. Not dissimilar from that which transformed a well known manufacturer whose mantra used to be that the best cable for use with their equipment was “the one that came in the box”. That was until they discovered something that had a higher profit margin...er, sorry, I meant “sounded better”.

Upshot is, if someone is trying to sell something (anything), always take the advertorials with a very large quantity of NaCl.
 
suzywong said:
But don’t forget, Keith has his agenda. He is in business. While he doesn’t sell “expensive audiophile cables”, he does sell “expensive DSP based solutions”.

One day this may change.
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Indeed. Keith's views on some things have changed before. That's okay, it's allowed, and he certainly wouldn't be the first to experience the odd Damascene conversion, but if you're going to play the game it pays to know the rules and a wee bit about the players.

Keith's current position will strike a chord with a certain percentage of potential purchasers, who'll think 'that's my type of dealer, solid chap,' just as there as those who'll think 'deaf twat, wouldn't buy a 13A plug from him.'

Nobody can please all of the people all of the time. So as ever you vote with with your wallet according to what floats your personal life raft.
 
suzywong said:
...a well known manufacturer whose mantra used to be that the best cable for use with their equipment was “the one that came in the box”. That was until they discovered something that had a higher profit margin...er, sorry, I meant “sounded better”.
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and/or were bought by an investment bank...
 
I have met Keith and he is a very nice chap. Dealers all have their ways of selling, we stick with the ones that suite us.

I wont pretend i agree with Keith on, well half the things he says, but i do believe he is a decent chap.

Go on Keith just say mains cables make a difference, go on you know you want too;)
 
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