Should Scotland be an independent country?

[Michael J]

it's equally curious that anyone could consider execution to be deserved, never mind the brutal and botched beheading that the lady in question suffered. different times? hmmmm...

"The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there." QE1 was very reluctant to sign the required paperwork, and regretted having to do so. I think Cromwell was considerably less perturbed about getting Charles' head lopped off, as evidenced by subsequent behaviour. In any case, we are usually not well-served by applying our modern sensibilities/sensitivities to prior times. We often neglect to account for some things - such as the sheer toughness of most peoples' lives at the time.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

The numbers I posted earlier and then you mentioned bullshit. Where? Which numbers were wrong?

I can't be sure, but think the doubt is wrt the way you selected and then 'interpreted' what those figures 'mean' or imply whilst ignoring other relevant points.

Start with the fact that the SNP gained and now have many seats, elected on an explicit platform that this would give them a mandate to press for and have another IndyRef.

It is reasonable to accept that not every SNP voter actually wanted that.

However it is also reasonable to accept that not every *non-SNP* voter did *not* want that.

Hence the mandate isn't for independence. It is for the Scottish Goverment and the SNP at Westminster, to seek another IndyRef. Just as other elections produce a large party majority from a minority of votes.

Add in the warning last time around that voting for Independence would eject Scotland from the EU, and then the size of the difference in Yes/No votes, and it is also clear that circumstances have changed materially. At the time of the last IndyRef we could expect to remain in the EU having rejected Scots Independence and thus avoid being ejected by voting to leave the UK. That certainly swayed some voters.

Hence it is now appropriate for the SNP to seek another IndyRef.

I have no idea when this might occur. Nor how I'd vote. But it seems reasonable for it now to be sought, and then held.

If you are confident that Scotland is better off within the UK, then you can make that argument. Consider the title of this topic thread.

 

[Michael J]

Hence it is now appropriate for the SNP to seek another IndyRef.

Without necessarily taking issue with any other points raised in your post, it is most appropriate for them first to make a decent case for having another referendum before actually seeking it - a case with more foundation than "we want another go" as they have been repeating weekly/daily since losing the last one. No, the "material" (actually political) change is not adequate justification in itself. A worthwhile presentation of an actual future for the country is needed. They lost the last one because they had not made the case for a prospective future outside of the UK. That has not changed. They need to go back to their drawing board.

 

[gassor]

One good thing about Scottish independence will be an end to the dreams of the Old Firm where they picture themselves in the English leagues.

Why would any self-respecting football team want to play against overpaid mercenaries every week?

 

[Michael J]

To relieve boredom?

 

[gassor]

Nothing boring about Scottish football unless you're waiting for the Ranjurs, to win something beyond the Petrofac Cup, lol.

 

[myles]

Why would any self-respecting football team want to play against overpaid mercenaries every week?

Mercenaries Vs terrorists. Sounds like an idea for a computer game.

 

[Colin L]

Hey Gassor, tell me again how well Celtic do in competitions outside Scotland. LOL

 

[tiggers]

Just retaliating, trigger. You were first in with that kind of thing, it’s not something I make a habit of. I guess you’re the child.

I don’t give a damn that you find me irksome, I don’t want the UK to break up and I like Scots. That does not make me a troll. I’ve repeated it enough but you still got it wrong earlier. You are the definition of troll.

Still waiting for a post from you on the topic of the thread.

I said you were a bore, not a troll. Perhaps learn to read before mouthing off.

 

[Brian]

Just to be clear about who has been mouthing off.

If you say so Brains, after all you seem to know what's best for everyone.

Do I, trigger?

Above is the first time I referred to you as trigger. Do you see why?

I said you were a bore, not a troll. Perhaps learn to read before mouthing off.

Whatever, trigger.

Still waiting for that post on the topic of the thread.

 

[tiggers]

Above is the first time I referred to you as trigger. Do you see why?

Yes, you’re childish, irksome and not very good at constructing a logical argument ! HTH

 

[gassor]

Mercenaries Vs terrorists. Sounds like an idea for a computer game.

Easy to work out the Mercenaries, but who are the Terrorists?

Hey Gassor, tell me again how well Celtic do in competitions outside Scotland. LOL

Top of their EL Group beating Lazio twice indicates they are doing just fine. Last year they were only second in their group, but given their limited resources that's not too bad. What's your point?

 

[myles]

Easy to work out the Mercenaries, but who are the Terrorists?

Well their cheerleader squad are the Green Brigade.

 

[Brian]

I can't be sure, but think the doubt is wrt the way you selected and then 'interpreted' what those figures 'mean' or imply whilst ignoring other relevant points.

Start with the fact that the SNP gained and now have many seats, elected on an explicit platform that this would give them a mandate to press for and have another IndyRef.

It is reasonable to accept that not every SNP voter actually wanted that.

However it is also reasonable to accept that not every *non-SNP* voter did *not* want that.

Hence the mandate isn't for independence. It is for the Scottish Goverment and the SNP at Westminster, to seek another IndyRef. Just as other elections produce a large party majority from a minority of votes.

Add in the warning last time around that voting for Independence would eject Scotland from the EU, and then the size of the difference in Yes/No votes, and it is also clear that circumstances have changed materially. At the time of the last IndyRef we could expect to remain in the EU having rejected Scots Independence and thus avoid being ejected by voting to leave the UK. That certainly swayed some voters.

Hence it is now appropriate for the SNP to seek another IndyRef.

I have no idea when this might occur. Nor how I'd vote. But it seems reasonable for it now to be sought, and then held.

If you are confident that Scotland is better off within the UK, then you can make that argument. Consider the title of this topic thread.

Not sure what you mean by "selected", Jim. The numbers are what they are, they exist as fact.

Here is a link to the comment that the SNP want support of 60% in polls before going ahead with a referendum.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...before-next-independence-referendum-1-3920508

A referendum isn't carried out by constituency, but here are the irrelevant numbers from the GE that show seats.
Seats
SNP 48
Con 6
LD. 4
Labour 1

Here are numbers that matter from the GE.
Votes cast
SNP 1,242,380
Conservative 692,939
LibDem 263,417
Labour 511,838

By number of votes, the SNP doesn’t have even 30% of the electorate they can factually say support independence. Fact is, many more voted for a party other than the pro-independence SNP.

What else can you interpret from the numbers other than there is no mandate for independence, and very little, if any mandate for a referendum from the perspective of the Westminster tory govt?

 

[myles]

Not sure what you mean by "selected", Jim. The numbers are what they are, they exist as fact.

Here is a link to the comment that the SNP want support of 60% in polls before going ahead with a referendum.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...before-next-independence-referendum-1-3920508

A referendum isn't carried out by constituency, but here are the irrelevant numbers from the GE that show seats.
Seats
SNP 48
Con 6
LD. 4
Labour 1

Here are numbers that matter from the GE.
Votes cast
SNP 1,242,380
Conservative 692,939
LibDem 263,417
Labour 511,838

By number of votes, the SNP doesn’t have even 30% of the electorate they can factually say support independence. Fact is, many more voted for a party other than the pro-independence SNP.

What else can you interpret from the numbers other than there is no mandate for independence, and very little, if any mandate for a referendum from the perspective of the Westminster tory govt?

Thing is Brian, we can argue this until we are blue in the face but let's wait until Scotland gets another 'once in a generation' vote. Then we will see...

 

[Colin L]

Easy to work out the Mercenaries, but who are the Terrorists?

Top of their EL Group beating Lazio twice indicates they are doing just fine. Last year they were only second in their group, but given their limited resources that's not too bad. What's your point?

My point is that from your post it seems the limit of your ambitions seem to be for your team to be a very, very big fish, winning everything easily, in a very small pond. Is the occasional frisson of a few Europa league wins followed by the inevitable early stage knock-out really that great.

 

[gassor]

Well their cheerleader squad are the Green Brigade.

I'm talking about players so unless you think any of the Celtic squad have been involved in terrorist activity I'm not sure where this is going.

 

[myles]

I'm talking about players so unless you think any of the Celtic squad have been involved in terrorist activity I'm not sure where this is going.

It's an awful club; steeped in sectarianism, support for the IRA and the well documented kiddy stuff.

 

[gassor]

My point is that from your post it seems the limit of your ambitions seem to be for your team to be a very, very big fish, winning everything easily, in a very small pond. Is the occasional frisson of a few Europa league wins followed by the inevitable early stage knock-out really that great.

So now I have limited ambitions cause I don't think Celtic should ever even dream of joining the EPL? As a nationalist you should be praising the achievements in Europe of both Scottish teams instead of trying to denigrate them, well one of them at least. Do you have a problem with the Hoops?

 

[gassor]

It's an awful club; steeped in sectarianism, support for the IRA and the well documented kiddy stuff.

Here we go, showing your true colours at last. Everything you allege is garbage and shows total ignorance of and indeed hatred of a club you know very little about.