Reclocking USB signals - significant improvement !
- Thread starter cpg
- Start date
beammeup
pfm Member
Listen Nick - I'm interesting in how it sounds - and appreciate the fact that you are feeding you experiences back to this forum. I can't understand why many are kicking back at you like this?
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
An advantage of allowing the 5V USB to power the input section of a DAC is that it can allow the DAC to 'register' its details with the host machine even when the DAC itself isn't powered. The Benchmark DACs do this. Of course, trying to send data to it then will fail unless it is powered. And so far as I can tell, the output doesn't show any problems with the USB power getting past this input section. I assume the DACs internal power is completely isolated from the USB 5v in input.
Fourlegs
Trade: WAVE High Fidelity digital cables
clivem2
pfm Member
Hard to say but here's an initial comment around galvanic isolation. I _think_ this usually only applies to the two data wires and even then it's not necessarily perfect. There's noise that can still get through and the DC connections often aren't isolated but of course there are other things that can to done help there. Dare I say that you need a detailed spec of the galvanic isolation implementation to be able to gauge its effectiveness. The same is probably true for the other statements, ie low jitter compared to what, what's the spec? You can't tell so you might as well try it and either measure something useful or take a listen.
Alex S
carbon based lifeform
Thankfully, the guy who makes it takes measurements (this is a NOS Dac so I am aware of its potential technical weakness):
Harmonic distortion, capacitor coupled output, 1 kHz, -6 dBFS dithered sinewave, THD = 0.0029%
Harmonic distortion, transformer coupled output, 1 kHz, -6 dBFS dithered sinewave, THD = 0.0043%
Harmonic distortion, capacitor coupled output, 1 kHz, -60 dBFS dithered sinewave, THD = 0.9%
Harmonic distortion, transformer coupled output, 1 kHz, -60 dBFS dithered sinewave, THD = 0.9%
Intermodulation distortion, capacitor coupled output, CCIR IMD = 0.006%
Intermodulation distortion, transformer coupled output, CCIR IMD = 0.005%
Square wave 100 Hz, capacitor coupled output
Square wave 100 Hz, transformer coupled output
Square wave 11025 Hz, capacitor coupled output
Square wave 11025 Hz, transformer coupled output
S/PDIF stage bit clock 2.822 MHz, FFT analysis, ± 50 kHz span
USB stage bit clock 1.411 MHz, with master clock 22.5792 MHz, FFT analysis, ± 50 kHz span
USB stage bit clock 1.411 MHz, with master clock 11.2896 MHz, FFT analysis, ± 50 kHz span
Harmonic distortion, capacitor coupled output, 1 kHz, -6 dBFS dithered sinewave, THD = 0.0029%
Harmonic distortion, transformer coupled output, 1 kHz, -6 dBFS dithered sinewave, THD = 0.0043%
Harmonic distortion, capacitor coupled output, 1 kHz, -60 dBFS dithered sinewave, THD = 0.9%
Harmonic distortion, transformer coupled output, 1 kHz, -60 dBFS dithered sinewave, THD = 0.9%
Intermodulation distortion, capacitor coupled output, CCIR IMD = 0.006%
Intermodulation distortion, transformer coupled output, CCIR IMD = 0.005%
Square wave 100 Hz, capacitor coupled output
Square wave 100 Hz, transformer coupled output
Square wave 11025 Hz, capacitor coupled output
Square wave 11025 Hz, transformer coupled output
S/PDIF stage bit clock 2.822 MHz, FFT analysis, ± 50 kHz span
USB stage bit clock 1.411 MHz, with master clock 22.5792 MHz, FFT analysis, ± 50 kHz span
USB stage bit clock 1.411 MHz, with master clock 11.2896 MHz, FFT analysis, ± 50 kHz span
Last edited:
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
https://www.ldovr.com/product-p/lt3045-a.htm. assuming you've got 260mV to waste and need no more than 1A output. They're actually at their best when dropping about 1.5v.
Fourlegs
Trade: WAVE High Fidelity digital cables
This morning my friend and fellow PFM member @TheFlash invited himself to my house to drink coffee and to listen to the Innuos Phoenix.
The initial system set up was Innuos Zenith SE connected to Chord Dave by USB (Supra USB 2.0). The Dave is connected direct to Pass Labs XA60.8 mono power amps and they feed Spendor SP200 speakers. The system had been switched on for a couple of hours before Nigel arrive.
The purpose of the session was simply to establish whether inserting the Phoenix made a difference that we could hear and whether we preferred it. Nigel suggested a track called 'Salt Of The Earth' by Bill Fay on his 'Countless Branches' album so we used that. It has clear piano with some bass and a Bill Fay singing. I liked it and it was a good suggestion.
After listening to the track with the base system set up we inserted the Phoenix between the Innuos Zenith SE and the Dave. The Supra usb cable was taken from the Zenith to the Phoenix and the Innuos usb cable supplied with the Phoenix was used between the Phoenix and the Dave.
Within about 15 seconds Nigel and I looked at each other and asked if we could stop the track and go back to without the Phoenix because we both heard a clear and compelling difference with the Phoenix that we liked.
Going back to without the Phoenix clearly removed the difference that we had heard but we then added back the Phoenix just to make sure and back came the improvement. With the Phoenix we both felt that the bass was easier to hear and had more clarity and perhaps a richer sound. The mids and top end were somewhat sweeter and less 'digital'. We both liked the improvement a lot which is saying something because it already sounded excellent without the Phoenix.
The next stage was to add in the Chord Blu2 Mscaler between the Zenith and the Dave. Even without the Phoenix this moved the bass etc in the same direction as the Phoenix and also added the very special qualities that fans of the Mscaler will recognise. Today was not about the Mscaler so I will not dwell on that but what we wanted to see was whether adding the Phoenix to an Mscaler system would have as much of an effect as it did with our first session.
Adding the Phoenix to the Blu2 Mscaler / Dave did indeed give similar results to the first session but I think we agreed that perhaps it was not quite as obvious. However to our ears the improvements were definitely still there.
Finally we tried the Phoenix in the same system but this time with the Blu2 Mscaler connected to a Dave with a custom build full Sean Jacobs external power supply with separate LPS voltage rails to the digital and analogue circuits in the Dave. At this point we reached the stage where we were no longer sure whether the Phoenix was making any difference to the sound quality despite switching backwards and forwards several times.
There is no doubt in my mind that I could hear a difference by adding an Innuos Phoenix to my standard system and that I liked the sound.
Inside the Phoenix, as well as the Innuos USB board one can see one of the power supply boards clearly labeled "Innuos Statement Front End PSU" and this is in line with Innuos saying that the Phoenix takes other Innuos servers towards their top of the range Statement.
Innuos say this about the Phoenix,
"The Phoenix USB Reclocker takes the USB signal from ANY source (It's not limited to Innuos products) and completely regenerates it to an extremely high precision signal to feed into your DAC.
3 Components in 1
The PhoenixUSB offers in one unit the equivalent of 3 separate components:
• A USB regenerator
• Linear power supply
• External master clock with its own linear power supply.
Highly Regulated Linear Power Supplies
The USB chip regenerating the signal contains no switching regulators. All 3 independent voltages to the chip originate from an independent linear power supply with further regulation provided by 3 sets of LT305 regulators.
The use of a 3 ppb OCXO clock running directly at 24 mHz and connected via a board track just a couple inches away from the USB chip itself ensures the shortest possible connected path. No precision is lost within cables and connectors, as is the case when using an external master 10mHz clock with an additional 24 mHz clock generator.
Two independent Statement-level linear power supplies, one dedicated to the OCXO clsock and the other used for powering the USB chip 5V USB line."
We all know before we start that the defenders of the faith (aka the FM objectivists) will pounce and say that a reclocker cannot possibly make any difference to the sound quality but to be honest I am not even going to go there. They can start their own thread somewhere else if they wish and debate that in their own little safe place. This thread was started by @cpg who listened to the Phoenix at a show and posted that he liked what he heard. That grabbed my attention sufficiently for me to want to try one to see if I could also hear a difference.
Whether what the Phoenix does is mainly down to reclocking or is due to its power supplies I do not know and I do not really care but the clear result from today was that both I and another PFM could hear a compelling difference due to the Phoenix.
It is not cheap but I suggest that if anyone has an Innuos server that is not a Statement then it would be worthwhile asking your Innuos dealer if you can get a home demo of the Phoenix.
The initial system set up was Innuos Zenith SE connected to Chord Dave by USB (Supra USB 2.0). The Dave is connected direct to Pass Labs XA60.8 mono power amps and they feed Spendor SP200 speakers. The system had been switched on for a couple of hours before Nigel arrive.
The purpose of the session was simply to establish whether inserting the Phoenix made a difference that we could hear and whether we preferred it. Nigel suggested a track called 'Salt Of The Earth' by Bill Fay on his 'Countless Branches' album so we used that. It has clear piano with some bass and a Bill Fay singing. I liked it and it was a good suggestion.
After listening to the track with the base system set up we inserted the Phoenix between the Innuos Zenith SE and the Dave. The Supra usb cable was taken from the Zenith to the Phoenix and the Innuos usb cable supplied with the Phoenix was used between the Phoenix and the Dave.
Within about 15 seconds Nigel and I looked at each other and asked if we could stop the track and go back to without the Phoenix because we both heard a clear and compelling difference with the Phoenix that we liked.
Going back to without the Phoenix clearly removed the difference that we had heard but we then added back the Phoenix just to make sure and back came the improvement. With the Phoenix we both felt that the bass was easier to hear and had more clarity and perhaps a richer sound. The mids and top end were somewhat sweeter and less 'digital'. We both liked the improvement a lot which is saying something because it already sounded excellent without the Phoenix.
The next stage was to add in the Chord Blu2 Mscaler between the Zenith and the Dave. Even without the Phoenix this moved the bass etc in the same direction as the Phoenix and also added the very special qualities that fans of the Mscaler will recognise. Today was not about the Mscaler so I will not dwell on that but what we wanted to see was whether adding the Phoenix to an Mscaler system would have as much of an effect as it did with our first session.
Adding the Phoenix to the Blu2 Mscaler / Dave did indeed give similar results to the first session but I think we agreed that perhaps it was not quite as obvious. However to our ears the improvements were definitely still there.
Finally we tried the Phoenix in the same system but this time with the Blu2 Mscaler connected to a Dave with a custom build full Sean Jacobs external power supply with separate LPS voltage rails to the digital and analogue circuits in the Dave. At this point we reached the stage where we were no longer sure whether the Phoenix was making any difference to the sound quality despite switching backwards and forwards several times.
There is no doubt in my mind that I could hear a difference by adding an Innuos Phoenix to my standard system and that I liked the sound.
Inside the Phoenix, as well as the Innuos USB board one can see one of the power supply boards clearly labeled "Innuos Statement Front End PSU" and this is in line with Innuos saying that the Phoenix takes other Innuos servers towards their top of the range Statement.
Innuos say this about the Phoenix,
"The Phoenix USB Reclocker takes the USB signal from ANY source (It's not limited to Innuos products) and completely regenerates it to an extremely high precision signal to feed into your DAC.
3 Components in 1
The PhoenixUSB offers in one unit the equivalent of 3 separate components:
• A USB regenerator
• Linear power supply
• External master clock with its own linear power supply.
Highly Regulated Linear Power Supplies
The USB chip regenerating the signal contains no switching regulators. All 3 independent voltages to the chip originate from an independent linear power supply with further regulation provided by 3 sets of LT305 regulators.
The use of a 3 ppb OCXO clock running directly at 24 mHz and connected via a board track just a couple inches away from the USB chip itself ensures the shortest possible connected path. No precision is lost within cables and connectors, as is the case when using an external master 10mHz clock with an additional 24 mHz clock generator.
Two independent Statement-level linear power supplies, one dedicated to the OCXO clsock and the other used for powering the USB chip 5V USB line."
We all know before we start that the defenders of the faith (aka the FM objectivists) will pounce and say that a reclocker cannot possibly make any difference to the sound quality but to be honest I am not even going to go there. They can start their own thread somewhere else if they wish and debate that in their own little safe place. This thread was started by @cpg who listened to the Phoenix at a show and posted that he liked what he heard. That grabbed my attention sufficiently for me to want to try one to see if I could also hear a difference.
Whether what the Phoenix does is mainly down to reclocking or is due to its power supplies I do not know and I do not really care but the clear result from today was that both I and another PFM could hear a compelling difference due to the Phoenix.
It is not cheap but I suggest that if anyone has an Innuos server that is not a Statement then it would be worthwhile asking your Innuos dealer if you can get a home demo of the Phoenix.
In your case a reclocker won’t make a difference. The USB input is completely isolated including measures to suppress common-mode / RF noise. It uses its own clocks already, and is asynchronous, so jitter is really not an issue here.
A reclocker would help an adaptive USB front end a lot though...
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
MMM Interesting result.
Why don't you care how it does what it does though?
Given that you seemed uncertain about differences when an external psu was further added into the mix do you think maybe that reclocking an asynchronous DAC which acts as master clock might be a waste of time, as the science and logic suggests, and that any benefit comes form it's noise filtration and provision of a better regulated USB 5v line and potential removal of CM noise?
I know where my money is. I'm totally willing to beleive there's benefit to better cleaner 5v and psu. But that doesn't hold true for reclocking a signal prior to sending to an asynchronous DAC that reclocks anyway.
Thanks for taking the time.
Why don't you care how it does what it does though?
Given that you seemed uncertain about differences when an external psu was further added into the mix do you think maybe that reclocking an asynchronous DAC which acts as master clock might be a waste of time, as the science and logic suggests, and that any benefit comes form it's noise filtration and provision of a better regulated USB 5v line and potential removal of CM noise?
I know where my money is. I'm totally willing to beleive there's benefit to better cleaner 5v and psu. But that doesn't hold true for reclocking a signal prior to sending to an asynchronous DAC that reclocks anyway.
Thanks for taking the time.
Fourlegs
Trade: WAVE High Fidelity digital cables
Thanks.
I suppose what I really meant was that I didn’t want to participate in a heated exchange with someone trying to browbeat me into submission with reasons why any possible parts of the Phoenix could not have any audible effect when I knew what I had heard.
In reality of course I am interested about what is going on in the box, but it is not for me to defend Innuos for calling it a reclocker and I wanted to stay out of that debate.
Alex S
carbon based lifeform
Yes thank you. Seems like an excellent result all round: you and your friend like it and I don’t need it (the reclocking part).
As I’ve said before I have five Sean Jacobs supplies doing stuff and would likely approach him for any further noise filtration and or regulation.
As I’ve said before I have five Sean Jacobs supplies doing stuff and would likely approach him for any further noise filtration and or regulation.
Fourlegs
Trade: WAVE High Fidelity digital cables
a 'Troll Owning 101' response
Thanks for your thoughts on the unit, I'd definitely like to try one myself I must admit, I had great results from linear power supplies also. I do wonder though why the sheer cost has to be added to these things, I completely appreciate the cost of design to production but £2500 seems excessive.
Would you feel this is £2500 worth of upgrade? just in your personal opinion, no justifications needed.
Well the Statement is just shy of £10k. The Innuos Zenith SE was £4.5k so added to £2.5k that is £7k. The alternative would be to trade or sell the SE and buy a Statement which would cost a lot more. On that basis yes the £2.5k could be worth it. I have spent similar before for a similar upgrade in sound quality.
I have not yet made up my mind about whether to buy the Phoenix because I am having a new Sean Jacobs DC4 power supply made for my Dave and I do not know how much the Phoenix would add to the party on top of that but all I can say is that owners of the cheaper Zenith 2 and 3 would be well advised to listen because then their total spend including the Phoenix should be much less and the total could be worth it for the sound quality.