Such as?
Previously happy LP12 owners who moved on.....
- Thread starter ex brickie
- Start date
John
Rack’em Up!
I think I understand that you feel a pre-Cirkus LP12 with the black lined bearing was the most tuneful LP12. I’m not sure what the rest of your confuguration was before you moved on… Ekos2, Lingo 1, Trampolin or support?
I suppose it’s up to the user to try their best to A/B and decide for themselves what they like best. I think I had a similar setup to yours and would say that the Trampolin and Cirkus on the original kite shaped subchassis was not to my liking and I actually removed the Trampolin and reverted back to my pre-Cirkus bearing for several years.
The Cirkus bearing was swapped back in after acquiring a Greenstreet Keel Klone and running it with my pre-Cirkus bearing for a few weeks. I became curious and installed the Cirkus bearing on the Greenstreet and all was well. My theory is that the Cirkus bearing required a better subchassis than the original stock steel version. That came later with the introduction of the Keel and later the Greenstreet subchassis.
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
Compliant glue layers.
How do you change the armboard? How do you align the armboard? The shop has to mess around with glue rather three screws? Glue? That's your answer?
tpetsch
...The rhythm has Control
My experiences are similar John, pre-Cirkus, Ekos, Lingo 1, Rosewood LP12 with the black lined bearing was the most tuneful LP12 IMO, no Trampolin as I never heard that thing help any LP12, it was always an instant tune killer. And at the shop with many of the other newer upgrades I've heard and installed I was never happy with the sound as it always seemed to introduce some other type of distortion that moved away from the balance I preferred thus preventing me from personally moving forward. But I have never heard the Greenstreet, and at this point I'm so far removed from the LP12 and see no reason to return, although a friend of mine has installed the Mushrooms on one of his Lp12's and we all concluded it was an improvement.
And it's not due to some overall system vintage synergy where that particular LP12 build that I preferred somehow matched sound wise with my other gear of choice. I now have a very new/modern and radical departure deck from that vintage LP12 that I used to enjoy that has slotted into my vintage system better then I could have imagined it would. It just goes to show you how good that old gear really is, it just keeps getting better & has no issues keeping up with a proper new front end built using the right age old Linn/Naim/Rega priorities that I react to, reminds me how both Julian & Ivor continue to be right when they preached "Source First" ages ago.
clownfish
It's all in the details
I had an early '80s LP12 which sounded great with NAC 42/NAP 110 and Kans. As I moved to a bigger room and more modern amplification and speakers (twice - ouch) the bass bloom became more obvious, the sound too muddied and it took away from my listening pleasure. I recently swapped that for a GR which works beautifully with my Luxman and Proac D20R's.
Almost 30 years ago I had a similar LP12 with NAC 82/250 and a bunch of Naim PSUs. I fell for the Cirkus rhetoric and whilst it did sound cleaner and perhaps 'better' I noticed I just played records less and less.
As a consequence of the above I always felt the pre-Cirkus LP12's were suited to (designed for) older Naim kit and older, less fulsome speakers. It certainly reflects my limited experience. Is this a valid perception? If the LP12 worked with DBL's and Briks I guess my long standing conviction is off the mark here?
Almost 30 years ago I had a similar LP12 with NAC 82/250 and a bunch of Naim PSUs. I fell for the Cirkus rhetoric and whilst it did sound cleaner and perhaps 'better' I noticed I just played records less and less.
As a consequence of the above I always felt the pre-Cirkus LP12's were suited to (designed for) older Naim kit and older, less fulsome speakers. It certainly reflects my limited experience. Is this a valid perception? If the LP12 worked with DBL's and Briks I guess my long standing conviction is off the mark here?
tpetsch
...The rhythm has Control
I also think that when Digital was introduced newer gear became compromised, no more could gear be built to maximize an analog signal only, now it had to deal with both Digital & Analog signals and as a result was not the best it could be for both and probably even leaning towards making the Digital source sound better as that appeared to be the future and early digital needed all the help it could get. I like to think of my vintage Naim system as a last hurrah for analog, built to maximize the playback of an analog only front end, digital does not sound sit down in front of it enjoyable thru this vintage of a system. And as long as a newer Analog front end is built using the right playback fundamentals & priorities that system of old can continue to improve.
And I'll take it even further by saying that the LP12 upgrades that have been introduced after the advent of Digital were in part designed to sound better thru Linns newer released gear that has become more and more Digital ready thru the years & up to today where the analog signals from a modern LP12 are actually converted to Digital signals thru some of Linns latest offerings.
SONDEKNZ
Kiwi, now living in Hangzhou, CHINA
A valid opinion, but you'll never convince me of that.
SONDEKNZ
Kiwi, now living in Hangzhou, CHINA
Thought about it many times, but always backed-off as I don't want to add mass and change the sound.
For best sound, the LP12 plinth needs to be as light as possible - but no lighter
- IMHO.
SONDEKNZ
Kiwi, now living in Hangzhou, CHINA
John, your findings are similar to my own.
I have had the occasional "wrong turn'' with LP12 upgrades, but most upgrades have moved the deck to the next level as far as improved sound goes.
Aside from the main bearing itself - the Karousel is not perfect, but does improve things - the biggest impact has always been those upgrades that improved speed stability!
That said, there is no reason why having more stable speed should ruin the legendary "beautiful" LINN Sondek LP12 sound... And it holds true!
The LP12 just gets better and better with improved speed stability. This is where the mushrooms are the BIG win!
SONDEKNZ
Kiwi, now living in Hangzhou, CHINA
As an aside, we have held on to all our spare LP12 bits...
The original Pre-Cirkus bearing and sub-platter.
The original pressed-steel sub-chassis - still heavily damped with Blu-tack
The original Ittok LVII tonearm on the original arm-board.
The original AC motor, etc. etc. etc.
One day I will build another deck with these original bits and bobs and the only changes from our late 1980s deck will be an aftermarket PSU - probably VALHALLA Minos - and run it springless with AUDIOSILENTE silicone mushrooms.
I know it will sound killer - and probably as good a deck as anyone would ever need or want.
The original Pre-Cirkus bearing and sub-platter.
The original pressed-steel sub-chassis - still heavily damped with Blu-tack
The original Ittok LVII tonearm on the original arm-board.
The original AC motor, etc. etc. etc.
One day I will build another deck with these original bits and bobs and the only changes from our late 1980s deck will be an aftermarket PSU - probably VALHALLA Minos - and run it springless with AUDIOSILENTE silicone mushrooms.
I know it will sound killer - and probably as good a deck as anyone would ever need or want.
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So the armboard would be glued to the sub-chassis at the factory? It would have tobe to ensure correct alignment. It would certainly sound different as the glue would act as a damping layer, something Linn clearly do not want. You would not be able to replace the armboard to change the arm type.
So it would cost more, be messier and take longer to do. Be less flexible and sound worse. Have you got any other suggestions?
It's easy with the benefit of hindsight to be critical of some of Linn's design choices but the LP12 was a success for several reasons, and one of them was that Linn built it properly. While it looked simple and almost crude there were no fundamental design errors and Linn did not really put a foot wrong as they developed it over the coming decades. Every single change made sense from a structural, engineering and sonic perspective. At no point did they offer a glued on armboard.
tpetsch
...The rhythm has Control
As an aside, we have held on to all our spare LP12 bits...
The original Pre-Cirkus bearing and sub-platter.
The original pressed-steel sub-chassis - still heavily damped with Blu-tack
The original Ittok LVII tonearm on the original arm-board.
The original AC motor, etc. etc. etc.
One day I will build another deck with these original bits and bobs and the only changes from our late 1980s deck will be an aftermarket PSU - probably VALHALLA Minos - and run it springless with AUDIOSILENTE silicone mushrooms.
I know it will sound killer - and probably as good a deck as anyone would ever need or want.
I would like to hear this deck but tried that Blu-tack soft sticky putty type stuff in experiments years ago -friends too- and while it at first it appeared to make the deck sound more full with even more weight it in turn also made the deck sound less tuneful, pushing it even further towards dead & colored sounding. This is also perhaps why many now prefer the mushrooms, because their less damped then the OEM springs, and if I was designing mushrooms I would like to experiment with even firmer elastomers rather than softer, but I wouldn't be surprised if the firmness of the current mushroom is just another convenient compromise.
Miss Ariel
pfm Member
Sorry to go slightly off topic tpetsch
But reading more of this thread I noticed on your signature you have now got the NAIA ?
I know you had a RP10 before and loved it
What's your impressions of it ?
And what areas does it better the RP10 ....you obviously must love what it does as you have one...very nice combination with the Aura phonostage and Amphilion 2...the synergy must be impressive have read a few reviews on the net. But none from people on forums who own one
thanks Ian
Chris
pfm Member
Last weekend I fitted some RS catalogue Taica-made stand off/ mushrooms (supposedly the same as the Audiosilente ones ) to a mate’s lp12and, having fitted some JohnR insoles to my own deck about a year ago was surprised to see how much more “ soft and pliable” the gel stand offs really are c/w the Insoles. Are the audiosilente ones of a similar softness to the Taica ones ? Or are/were there 3 alternatives ? I can only vouch for the good,IMHO, results I get from my Insoles which seem much less pliable. Or does the actual softness to the touch have nothing to do with it ? I read somewhere that JohnR had tried several grades of polymers for his insoles before deciding.
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
Mr pig, all your arguments are arguments against the keel, which is a multi-thousand pound piece of cnc metalwork. Yet that exists. I'm criticising their choice to use wood screws to clamp a badly positioned piece of mdf to a bent tin plate, yet the idea of locating an arboard exactly, in a production jig, and providing damping via specifically choosing constrained bonding agent is anathema to you. Righto.
tpetsch
...The rhythm has Control
I had a P10 before, the RP10 is a 10+ year old model that's been discontinued for many years.
And I agree, don't want to take this post off topic with my review of the Naia, but I will say that for me it's now perfectly clear that Bjork is a musical genius.
SONDEKNZ
Kiwi, now living in Hangzhou, CHINA
Agree. Speculating about how they might sound is fine, but listening to some AUDIOSILENTE silicone mushrooms properly installed is the only way to really appreciate all that they do for the old fruit box.
No more than 100 quid for the fungi - and a simple, 30-minute install...
You will be shocked - in a good way!
SONDEKNZ
Kiwi, now living in Hangzhou, CHINA
Yes. The AUDIOSILENTE silicone mushrooms are quite compliant laterally, but vertically - the position in which they are used to provide the LP12 suspension - they are quite firm and not so easy to compress.
Furthermore, once the silicone mushrooms are clamped between the large washer and the shoulder(s) provided in the sub-chassis, the become quite firmly supportive in all directions.
Having experimented with silicone oil in my LINN pre-Cirkus bearing - with not all great results, I might add - I also believe that the silicone structure of the mushrooms is important.
IMHO the silicone is providing additional and VERY effective "isolation" from any resonances that might travel from the top-plate ( with the motor bolted to the top-plate, motor noise is the prime offender here) down the top-plate-bolts, potentially exciting the sub-chassis - and finding its way to the stylus!
Whilst this all sounds good - or not - in theory, the proof is in the pudding.
So... What did your mate think of the sound of his newly mushroomed LP12???
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