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Previously happy LP12 owners who moved on.....

Mr Pig said:
However, it would not surprise me if Linn brought out their own version of this mod in the future. Not because I think it's right necessarily, but because I'm not convinced that the people in charge at Linn still understand what the LP12 is.
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I’m not convinced anyone knows what an LP12 is anymore as it has changed so much over the decades. I guess the last one I owned was mid-90s in basic spec, so kind of mid-way along the timeline. I suspect it had very few (if any) components in common with the original 1972 RD11/LP12, and I suspect it had very few (if any) components in common with one bought today.

I agree using TD-124 mushrooms as a suspension is conceptually different, but so is the CNC alloy Keel subchassis/armboard, the DC motor/PSU and I’m sure countless other components. I doubt there is much more than a couple of screws or bolts that could actually claim to “be an LP12”. The rest has evolved for whatever reason.

I certainly don’t know what an LP12 is anymore, though I think I know the ones I like (the ones that sound most like ‘an LP12’, whatever that is…). I liked mine!
 
Mr Pig said:
Not really. It doesn't matter what you call it, you don't have LP12 suspension.

The Linn Axis does not use LP12 suspension. It has three rubber diaphragms in turrets which the top-plate sits on, which is not entirely unlike the mushrooms. So Linn have been here before. They have employed a suspension system based on compliant rubber diaphragms and there are two things worth noting.

The Axis, while sounding good in its own way, does not sound like an LP12. And Linn do not produce a turntable using this system any more.
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Kind of a silly argument comparing the LP12 with Audio Innovation In-Soles or Audio Silente Mushrooms to a Linn Axis. My LP12 has a better bearing, sub-platter, outer platter, plinth, subchassis, top plate, motor, power supply, tonearm…. There’s no doubt ditching the springs for In-Soles was a significant improvement.

If you’re handy with an LP12, I would suggest trying them! Here’s a thread with some comments I made at the time.

pinkfishmedia.net

When is a spring not a spring ? When it’s a polymer Insole

The investment in money and time to try the In Soles is not large so I would recommend anyone who is capable of fitting them to try. And, I believe, you can return them if not satisfied. I actually feel fortunate to have a elastomeric isolator custom made for use in a LP12 on its way to the US...
pinkfishmedia.net pinkfishmedia.net
 
The thing with the axis is that it was fundamentally designed to employ that suspension system , and within the constraints of the budget it worked pretty well.

By comparison the LP12 has evolved over many years with its sprung suspension being at the heart of the design.

Personally the insoles/grommets rob the LP12 of its fundamental musicality, you may prefer it , but it aint an LP12 any more.
 
John said:
Kind of a silly argument comparing the LP12 with Audio Innovation In-Soles or Audio Silente Mushrooms to a Linn Axis.
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I'm comparing the suspension.

Linn are perfectly happy to transfer technology from one product to another. The Trampolin was a clear adaptation of the feet used on the Axis. It's been fifty years. It seems reasonable to assume that Linn have tried alternatives to the springs and grommets at some point. But they have not replaced them.

I'm not saying the mushrooms do nothing or are a terrible product. What I'm saying is that the suspension is so fundamental to the LP12 that it's hard to argue that removing them doesn't stop the deck being an LP12. It doesn't really matter how much users enthuse over them. I've heard it so many times. This or that product or system is wonderful, does it all, and there's not many times I heard said product and agreed. Maybe they work, I don't know and I don't really care. My LP12 sounds spot on to me as it is so I'm struggling to find any enthusiasm for messing with it.
 
Rexton said:
Can you provide references ?
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Regarding the impact of torque settings on Technics turntables, it was mentioned in the Stereophile review of the 1200G. I tried what they recommended in that review and preferred it to the default option.
 
david ellwood said:
Personally the insoles/grommets rob the LP12 of its fundamental musicality, you may prefer it , but it aint an LP12 any more.
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I've never heard the INSOLES, but relating to the same job the silicone mushrooms perform on the springless LP12, I just can't agree with you, David.
 
Mr Pig said:
I'm comparing the suspension.

Linn are perfectly happy to transfer technology from one product to another. The Trampolin was a clear adaptation of the feet used on the Axis. It's been fifty years. It seems reasonable to assume that Linn have tried alternatives to the springs and grommets at some point. But they have not replaced them.

I'm not saying the mushrooms do nothing or are a terrible product. What I'm saying is that the suspension is so fundamental to the LP12 that it's hard to argue that removing them doesn't stop the deck being an LP12. It doesn't really matter how much users enthuse over them. I've heard it so many times. This or that product or system is wonderful, does it all, and there's not many times I heard said product and agreed. Maybe they work, I don't know and I don't really care. My LP12 sounds spot on to me as it is so I'm struggling to find any enthusiasm for messing with it.
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That's understandable, Mr Pig. I've been there.

What I appreciate about you is that you are honest enough to admit that you have never heard the LP12 with silicone mushrooms properly installed.

Others, who say that they have heard the springless LP12 installed - and report the complete departure of musicality - I'm not so sure of.
 
SONDEKNZ said:
What I appreciate about you is that you are honest enough to admit that you have never heard the LP12 with silicone mushrooms properly installed.

Others, who say that they have heard the springless LP12 installed - and report the complete departure of musicality - I'm not so sure of.
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I haven't seen those comments. I certainly think the LP12 has a unique sound and that the springs have something to do with it. A while back I noticed that all of the Stack Audio LP12 parts are listed as 'out of stock' on their website. Turns out he's dropped all of his LP12 products but the reason is interesting. Theo is obsessed with reducing colouration and primarily employs damping of one sort or another to do it. He realised that the LP12 is inherently coloured and if you reduce that colouration too much it stops being an LP12!

I think this is exactly right. The RP10 I had was less coloured than an LP12 but it also sounded less like real life. With a well sorted LP12 it's easy to lose yourself in the feeling that you are listening to real artists and real instruments. Most systems don't do that.

The main reason I don't want to try anything else is that my LP12 sounds great. The last two changes were upgrading the Minos to Zeus and getting a Rega Ania Pro cartridge. It's all just clicked into place. It wasn't bad before but it sounds so right I don't need it to be any better or want it to sound any different.
 
I have to say it’s been a wonderful read so far, for someone like me that’s heard some good and not so good LP12 examples, but never owned one, it makes me even more curious (disturbingly) 😀.
 
freefallrob said:
I have to say it’s been a wonderful read so far, for someone like me that’s heard some good and not so good LP12 examples, but never owned one, it makes me even more curious (disturbingly) 😀.
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I have a friend who's had a huge array of hi-end turntables and still has three set up in his system just now. But he's never had an LP12 and now he wants one. Just to tick that box. I certainly think that he should as the LP12 is special. It has a certain sound.
 
I think the last LP12 sound that everyone new was the black liner bearing with any arm combination.
It had that classic LP12 sound.
To my ears it was that upper bass bloom and tremendous slam on leading edge of notes.
It wasn't exactly neutral but made up for it in terms of engagement and so exciting. It really made albums come alive and was great on drum kit and separation in the mix
The Karousel is great so detailed and assured and a superb addition to any old LP12
But I sometimes miss my black liner bearing and no regreats about the Karousel but it doesn't have that LP12 sound of old...
I would like another black liner bearing LP12 and build it up but cost of living says no.
 
Mr Pig said:
I haven't seen those comments. I certainly think the LP12 has a unique sound and that the springs have something to do with it. A while back I noticed that all of the Stack Audio LP12 parts are listed as 'out of stock' on their website. Turns out he's dropped all of his LP12 products but the reason is interesting. Theo is obsessed with reducing colouration and primarily employs damping of one sort or another to do it. He realised that the LP12 is inherently coloured and if you reduce that colouration too much it stops being an LP12!

I think this is exactly right. The RP10 I had was less coloured than an LP12 but it also sounded less like real life. With a well sorted LP12 it's easy to lose yourself in the feeling that you are listening to real artists and real instruments. Most systems don't do that.

The main reason I don't want to try anything else is that my LP12 sounds great. The last two changes were upgrading the Minos to Zeus and getting a Rega Ania Pro cartridge. It's all just clicked into place. It wasn't bad before but it sounds so right I don't need it to be any better or want it to sound any different.
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Yes. Sad to see that Theo is pulling out of LP12 bits and bobs. His Alto sub-chassis really is a thing of beauty.

I can agree with you about the unhealthy removal of playback "colourations" - to a point.

For example, I prefer CLASS-A tube amplification with minimal feedback. To my ears it adds some flesh and blood to my music.

I dick around with different amplifier operating points and various feedback approaches enough to understand how these variations impact sound.

Triode-operated tubes with a smidgen of Global Negative Feedback just sound more lifelike - versus other solid-state offerings - to me, but perhaps not to others.

The problem with the colouration reasoning relating to a turntable, is the PSU.

A lesser PSU - one that cannot maintain constant speed - adds more colouration than most people realise.

I do accept that some might enjoy this colouration. Fine with me - but I do not.

Each time my speed control has improved, my LP12 playback has improved - dramatically!

Which brings us back to the mushrooms: IMHO, the springless approach using silicone mushrooms is all about improving speed consistency, at the micro-level.

It's not about changing the sound or getting rid of the (infernal) bouncy platter - that's just a sideline benefit! 🥳 - and it's certainly not about removing the superb LP12 suspended isolation.

From all the ink that has been spilled about the springless LP12 - across this and many other forums - I think most are beginning to get that now.

Next time you are in Hangzhou Mr Pig, you are cordially invited for a listen...

Mushroom soup with no added colouring! ;)
 
Well after reading all of this I think I will stick with my clearaudio concept mc
I bought this from Carl (lencotweaker)
3 years ago and it has worked flawlessly and strangely not once have I thought about upgrading
it does everything I want or need and I know its limitations but I never feel “in my system “ I am missing anything it just draws attention to the music
Since thinking about demoing the lp12 all I have been thinking about all the different permutations :rolleyes:and I have had 3 lp12 a so I thought I new what I wanted :)
All the best
Tony
 
What this is all telling us is that a bit of colouration is liked by some.

I’ve got a good friend who’s a (very) pro musician, was part of one of the biggest bands of the 90s and now also joint owns a recording studio and produces.

The kit he uses to monitor and mix, in his own words ‘sounds like shit’. He would tell you it’s highly accurate and that’s absolutely what they need to do their mixing, but if you listen through it it sounds awful. Specifically he said it’s really tiring, accurate and dead flat but you need it to do the job.

For his home setup he uses a Rega deck and some smaller Tannoy bookshelf speakers turned up loud and loves it.

You wouldn’t find an RME Dac and some pro monitors in his living room to actually play stuff on.

My point being there’s a big push for ‘accurate’ sound, however the people who actually use kit for a living that’s designed to be ultra accurate wouldn’t bother have it in the house.

The valve guys like the sound they make, we all know there’s a bit of 2nd order harmonics happening and if that brings the result alive then enjoy.

The LP12 clearly stumbled on something which is giving some attack and pump to the rhythm of the playback, and however that occurs there it is. It’s loved by many.
 
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