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Post-Trump: III (decline, further tantrums, legal proceedings, book deals etc)

Ciunas Audio said:
So who among us is surprised? I completely expected this & bet it is not yet the depths of Trump's treason.
But the world is safe as men of Goodwill will save us all from armageddon, - Sorry, guys - I just had to say that

it's not a Hollywood movie - the good guys will not arrive in time to save the world - I know this is dramatic but is this not something that

You know that you are now viewed by the ICs of other nations as untrustworthy/insecure as far as IC is concerned.
Not because of one bad man,Trump but because your system is broken & they see how easy it is for the next proto-fascist to go even further.

Do you think that the IC communities would be happy hearing that men of goodwill will prevent this & worse from happening in the future?

There are a number of people who knew this - knew Trump had these nuclear secrets - they would have to have signed these secret documents out to him & knew he had them in Mar-a-lago. Maybe these are the whistle-blowers but who knows?
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How about you give us some plausible suggestions about what should (and CAN) be done, beyond a DOJ criminal investigation, rather than just exhorting us to "do something".
 
sean99 said:
How about you give us some plausible suggestions about what should (and CAN) be done, beyond a DOJ criminal investigation, rather than just exhorting us to "do something".
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I'm not a constitutional lawyer as I said before so not willing to enter into that - I already mentioned areas that need major change or scraping which I didn't see you addressing
- scrap the electoral college system
- scrap gerrymandering
- limit & control the money in politics
- change your gun laws
- packing the SC to adjust the bias back towards the center (take politics out of it altogether)
- scrap the filibuster
- other.......

Yes, I know there are many reasons that can be put forth why these can't be done!!

You or someone mentioned N.I & the problem there - there were many voices that also said you will never get the Unionists & Sinn Fein to sit down together & hammer out some ceasefire agreement, even as tunes says, it kicked problems down the road but the goal of achieving a ceasefire was achieved and has lasted for decades. So it wasn't even considered possible before it was!

So, yes, sometimes what's needed is a determined effort to accept that "we can't continue as we are - we need a major rethink"

Sorry, if I'm being so critical - it's hard to swallow how far down your country has fallen in international standing & how your system has been revealed to be so fragile.
I know I'm annoying you with my comments, pointing out what I perceive
 
My main concern is the Republican Party, not Trump. I suspect the latter is not long for this world. He has very obvious health and cognitive issues, is morbidly obese etc and looks worse in every new picture. He’ll likely be gone before the plethora of court cases he faces are through, I can’t see him being in a condition to serve time for his crimes.

The Republican Party openly adopting fascism with all its racism, bigotry, misogyny, religious extremism, gerrymandering, corruption and stacking of the legal system is a far bigger problem to my mind. That looks to have progressed so far it will take some serious undoing, and I only see further extremism waiting its turn within the GOP.
 
Ciunas Audio said:
I'm not a constitutional lawyer as I said before so not willing to enter into that
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In other words you have a bold vision, but absolutely no path to achieving it (and you think I am not well aware of the problems with the USA !?!?). Your posts may be well intentioned, but they are both patronizing and condescending.
 
sean99 said:
In other words you have a bold vision, but absolutely no path to achieving it (and you think I am not well aware of the problems with the USA !?!?). Your posts may be well intentioned, but they are both patronizing and condescending.
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Ok, but you keep asking me for answers when I put up a list of issues that need addressing & you just come back asking me for answers?? Yes, I'm sure you ar well aware of them - I wasn't suggesting you weren't but you asked me so I answered.

Sorry if this appears patronising or condescending.
 
Tony L said:
My main concern is the Republican Party, not Trump. I suspect the latter is not long for this world. He has very obvious health and cognitive issues, is morbidly obese etc and looks worse in every new picture. He’ll likely be gone before the plethora of court cases he faces are through, I can’t see him being in a condition to serve time for his crimes.

The Republican Party openly adopting fascism with all its racism, bigotry, misogyny, religious extremism, gerrymandering, corruption and stacking of the legal system is a far bigger problem to my mind. That looks to have progressed so far it will take some serious undoing, and I only see further extremism waiting its turn within the GOP.
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I agree & they seem to be on the verge of being able to control the outcome of future elections & once that rubicon is passed they will gain the Presidency & all hell will ensue.

It remains to be seen how the interim elections go in order to evaluate this scenario
 
I fear that if the Republicans win the mid-terms (fairly or unfairly) America is lost. If so they’ll block and filibuster everything and then if they win in 2024 basic electoral representation will be removed from vast swathes of the non-white non-Christian population. At that point fascism has arrived. Game over.

America has one chance to block this trajectory in a few months, and even then it will be a huge struggle as the gerrymandering is already largely in place.
 
Tony L said:
I fear that if the Republicans win the mid-terms (fairly or unfairly) America is lost. If so they’ll block and filibuster everything and then if they win in 2024 basic electoral representation will be removed from vast swathes of the non-white non-Christian population. At that point fascism has arrived. Game over.

America has one chance to block this trajectory in a few months, and even then it will be a huge struggle as the gerrymandering is already largely in place.
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Agree and this is not just a concern about the future of the US - it's concern for how the world will be restructured under a fascist US.

There are a lot of fascist forces now in the world but at least Boris didn't order an insurrection and for Parliament to be attacked
 
Ciunas Audio said:
But the world is safe as men of Goodwill will save us all from armageddon, - Sorry, guys - I just had to say that
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Either they will or they won't. No guarantees. But if we are saved from armegeddon, men of goodwill will have something to do with it.

I point out that saying men of goodwill are necessary is not the same as saying that they will be sufficient in any particular instance. The latter is your distortion of the idea.

This men of goodwill thing has triggered you a lot hasn't it? Try to figure out why it bugs you. Certainly you can't imagine anything will work out well if there are only men of selfishness and malice involved....
 
Ciunas Audio said:
I agree, it has been let go too far simply by the mistaken belief that the system will stop bad actors from damaging the nation.

As an example when I spelled out what Seth Abramson predicted/outlined exactly how Trump could hold onto power, the counter argument made by most of the US members here (can't remember who) was that there were too many checks & balances in the US system to allow such a vista - no mention was made of men of goodwill being needed to prevent such.

Well, I would contend that you guys are in this situation precisely because you had this belief that your system is/was exceptional - it's not as can easily be seen

Not doing something about it, just throwing your hands up in the air, because it seems futile, is the recipe for further disaster I hate to say.

Surely, there can be a lot done to limit the rise of the Nazi party that doesn't require the agreement of the GOP?
What about expanding the S.C. / getting rid of the filibuster?
Again, there has to be much more that can be done - I'm not a US expert - just an outside observer using common sense
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I completely agree that more strenuous anti-nazi measures are called-for. Bannon says he is at war. Take him at his word. Respond accordingly.
 
Ciunas Audio said:
the response to the US situation which when any talk about system change is brought up, the constitution is cited as the immovable object - happens when gun laws are mentioned or electoral college voting system or .....
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As I see it, the problem is only partially with the Constitution (written by gentlemen of the Enlightenment and incorporating its values - which included owning people as personal property at the time). It's equally about its interpretation, which is a job for the Supreme Court as the ultimate arbiter as to what it means. There seems little doubt that the Second Amendment (the right to bear arms) was intended to ensure that the USA, like Switzerland, had no standing army, but a civilian militia force, ready to down tools and pick up guns as needed. (This all fell apart very quickly as the USA found that it needed a regular army to deal with the locals, who objected to being deprived of their lands). However, interpretation of the Amendment has led to the present problems with firearms, the conservative solution to which is apparently to arm everyone.

In addition, there is the problem (which has existed from the very beginning), as to how much authority the Federal Government should have, and how much the individual states should have. The Confederate States exerted what they saw as their right to secede from the Union when Washington seemed to be homing in on one of their perceived rights (the one to own people as property).

FDR's New Deal gave the Federal Government considerable new powers. This has been a conservative cause célèbre since then, and it would seem that the present Supreme Court wants to undo this. The result has been a whole mass of very different state rules, exemplified by this week's Economist:

20220903_DE_US.jpg


Lincoln sought to defeat the Confederacy, not initially to end slavery, but because "a house divided against itself cannot stand". We can only hope that the house can stand. The old saying was that, when General Motors sneezes, the USA catches cold.. When the USA sneezes, the entire planet catches cold - or worse.
 
I absolutely see fascist unrest in our future. If the current liberal government takes timely and decisive action to quash it, we may be able to muddle forward under the current constitution. If they muff the response, as liberal governments often do, the fascists may take over. They always fall eventually, after enough decades, see Spain, South Africa, Argentina. THAT will be the opportunity for needed constitutional reform.

Of course now is an especially bad time for for a fascist US, the whole world is looking to fall apart under climate stress anyway.
 
I am hoping that the DOJ is of the opinion that the steady drip of scandalous (and treasonous) news from the Mar-A-Largo documents investigation will slowly peel away Trump/MAGA supporters within the political and legal establishment, giving them a (slightly) clearer path toward prosecuting him. They also cannot be seen to be political ahead of the mid-terms, but at the same time the drip-drip of top secret documents potentially being sold to foreign adversaries will not help the republicans get out the vote.

I agree that there is a lot riding on the outcome of the mid-terms, but the combination of the striking down of Roe vs Wade (along with comments about going after birth control and gay marriage next) and the revelations about Trump's blatant misuse of classified material (and falling gas prices) has given the Democrats reason for cautious optimism, where only 3 months ago the mid terms looked like a potential GOP landslide.
 
sean99 said:
I am hoping that the DOJ is of the opinion that the steady drip of scandalous (and treasonous) news from the Mar-A-Largo documents investigation will slowly peel away Trump/MAGA supporters within the political and legal establishment, giving them a (slightly) clearer path toward prosecuting him. They also cannot be seen to be political ahead of the mid-terms, but at the same time the drip-drip of top secret documents potentially being sold to foreign adversaries will not help the republicans get out the vote.

I agree that there is a lot riding on the outcome of the mid-terms, but the combination of the striking down of Roe vs Wade (along with comments about going after birth control and gay marriage next) and the revelations about Trump's blatant misuse of classified material (and falling gas prices) has given the Democrats reason for cautious optimism, where only 3 months ago the mid terms looked like a potential GOP landslide.
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It does seem to me that the MAGA faction (both forms: rednecks and political operators) is likely to be triggered by anything that smells unpatriotic. There's little that is more unpatriotic than treason, and in particular providing access to state secrets to those who shouldn't have them is a very tangible example of that, so I'm surprised this hasn't had more effect on Trump's base, but hopeful that it may yet peel away more of the not totally deranged elements of it.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
It does seem to me that the MAGA faction (both forms: rednecks and political operators) is likely to be triggered by anything that smells unpatriotic. There's little that is more unpatriotic than treason, and in particular providing access to state secrets to those who shouldn't have them is a very tangible example of that, so I'm surprised this hasn't had more effect on Trump's base, but hopeful that it may yet peel away more of the not totally deranged elements of it.
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The MAGA crazies still think this is a witch hunt and that the FBI planted the incriminating documents.

The rest of the GOP loyalists are merely cynical. They know T***p is guilty, but they don’t care as long as they think he can help them to get back in power.
 
DonQuixote99 said:
Either they will or they won't. No guarantees. But if we are saved from armegeddon, men of goodwill will have something to do with it.

I point out that saying men of goodwill are necessary is not the same as saying that they will be sufficient in any particular instance. The latter is your distortion of the idea.

This men of goodwill thing has triggered you a lot hasn't it? Try to figure out why it bugs you. Certainly you can't imagine anything will work out well if there are only men of selfishness and malice involved....
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Right, we probably agree then - men of goodwill are a hopeful necessity.
 
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