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Post-Trump: III (decline, further tantrums, legal proceedings, book deals etc)

Appealing the ruling for a Special Master would once again play into Trump's Delay and Distract strategy.
 
Being an early bird, I enjoy watching "Hard Talk" on the BBC News channel at 4.30 am with Stephen Sakur. Yesterday, and repeated this morning, he questioned Lindsay Graham. You could see Stephen was getting frustrated by the flood of obfuscation and whataboutery Graham poured out, straight from the MAGA playbook - "Hilary Clinton...bla,bla...Hunter Bidon's laptop...bla, bla...antifa...etc. etc.", without giving a straight answer to anything. It's quite astounding to think this man is in a high position of power and influence.
 
I'm not so sure that the DOJ can continue their investigation/analysis of the missing documents on intelligence matters.
Pure speculation on my part but isn't it said that they don't yet know what the empty folders once contained?
That the contents in the rest of the folders are all mixed up & a mess
Does this not have to be reconciled for the DOJ before anything is handed over to a Special Master? I can see this is going to be contentious

I also wonder just how many people in the US have the necessary security clearance to be appointed as Special master - I can see this also going to be contentious

Also what is the procedure for appointing a Special Master - does Trump's team get some say in approving this 3rd party - I can see this being contentious

All in all I don't see this ruling granting a special master as being the benign move many are saying it is - I think it is Trump's get-out clause
 
SteveS1 said:
Can the DOJ effectively continue their investigations wihout appealing this?
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They can continue their investigation but they are not allowed to use the documents that Trump stole. So they can probably continue in some regard but much of the meat of what they are doing obviously requires access to the evidence. E.g. there might well be witness questioning and testimony at the grand jury that cannot happen until this is resolved.
 
Emptywheel has a different idea.

"Honestly, I think what DOJ should do is give everything but the classified records back, and subpoena everything again."

1) Keep all docs marked as privileged and do a SM process
2) Return all else but demand proof of ownership
3)Immediately subpoena everything again by name

https://twitter.com/emptywheel/status/1566950067197644800
 
DonQuixote99 said:
You don't get it. I say you need *both* a good constitution with a good judicial check on overstepping by other branches of government, AND people of good character acting to make it function properly. Neither is sufficient alone.
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It comes down to the eternal problem, the utter impossibility of legislating people into doing what they should do. Too many people adhere only to the eleventh commandment, "thou shalt not get caught doing it".
 
DonQuixote99 said:
You don't get it. I say you need *both* a good constitution with a good judicial check on overstepping by other branches of government, AND people of good character acting to make it function properly. Neither is sufficient alone.
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I agree but what I thought you were saying was that it's not possible to change the constitution or the judiciary, so why bother - you have to JUST rely on "people of good character"?

I again invite you to sketch out some improved constitutional features that you think would make the second factor unnecessary. A scoffing attitude at the role of good character in politics only contributes to the fragility that distresses you, I think. We need to keep in mind that it is vitally important not to elect lying assholes.
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But your electoral system is broken so your advise to "vitally important not to elect lying assholes" is almost redundant - an impossible task as the system is biased against this. Having a meaningful electoral system would help improve the disenchantment with politics that appears to afflict a large portion of the US population - the ones that don't bother to vote

Just watch the upcoming mid-term elections & see how the GOP will just about scrape enough votes to get control of the house & your country is heading down the sewer fast. I hope I'm wrong in this prediction but I fear I'm not

So I already said - get rid of the electoral college system of voting & see the Senate change to better represent the people - change it to a popular voting system. This will remove the gerrymandering of states/counties.
Get rid of the unlimited money donations allowed in politics - that will help curtail some of the nefarious pressure groups in politics.

I would also get rid of the 2nd amendment for the sake of your children's lives

These are just some of the obvious changes needed (I'm sure there are more) - whether they require constitutional change or not, I don't know - I'm no constitutional lawyer.

But the fact of the matter is that the system itself is broken & is allowing democracy to be side-lined by fascism. Enough people of ill-will exist that the "people of goodwill" is a moot argument now!
 
tones said:
It comes down to the eternal problem, the utter impossibility of legislating people into doing what they should do. Too many people adhere only to the eleventh commandment, "thou shalt not get caught doing it".
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But that's what laws are about - to dissuade people from breaking the rules under which it has been decided that society will operate.

Sure, it's a dissuasion & requires people to follow those laws/rules or there are consequences - that's the idea, it's a dissuasion
If there weren't laws that defined the rules of the road, then mayhem would ensue - the mayhem is not avoided because we all rely on people's goodwill on the road - it's that everyone knows the rules & the consequences for not following them.
 
Yank said:
Appealing the ruling for a Special Master would once again play into Trump's Delay and Distract strategy.
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I am not convinced by this argument because a SM may take months and could easily last over a year.

Remember the main reason this ruling is bonkers is she extended his privilege to the classified documents because of *executive privilege*. That's 11,000 classified documents to review not the few MAGA hats and a handful of medical and tax records that have already been removed from the search by the filter team.

I suppose the SM might just rule that all government documents are not covered by executive privilege because he is no longer the executive but the judge has control over how the SM process is setup (who does it, when it's done, etc.) This could easily take a long time.

In contrast an appeal can be done relatively quickly. Yes it might go wrong, but I would suggest that if this ruling stands in any form on appeal then Donald Trump is going to look irrelevant as the US would be having a full on constitutional crisis.

Obviously I don't know what is going to happen and how to weigh the relative risks of each approach but I think the DoJ will appeal (or take one of the other suggested actions short of appeal) because this cannot just be left hanging there for all sorts of reasons. Really the delay has been achieved by the ruling and I am not convinced that anything they do at this point prevents that.
 
Ciunas Audio said:
I agree but what I thought you were saying was that it's not possible to change the constitution or the judiciary, so why bother - you have to JUST rely on "people of good character"?

But your electoral system is broken so your advise to "vitally important not to elect lying assholes" is almost redundant - an impossible task as the system is biased against this. Having a meaningful electoral system would help improve the disenchantment with politics that appears to afflict a large portion of the US population - the ones that don't bother to vote

Just watch the upcoming mid-term elections & see how the GOP will just about scrape enough votes to get control of the house & your country is heading down the sewer fast. I hope I'm wrong in this prediction but I fear I'm not

So I already said - get rid of the electoral college system of voting & see the Senate change to better represent the people - change it to a popular voting system. This will remove the gerrymandering of states/counties.
Get rid of the unlimited money donations allowed in politics - that will help curtail some of the nefarious pressure groups in politics.

I would also get rid of the 2nd amendment for the sake of your children's lives

These are just some of the obvious changes needed (I'm sure there are more) - whether they require constitutional change or not, I don't know - I'm no constitutional lawyer.

But the fact of the matter is that the system itself is broken & is allowing democracy to be side-lined by fascism. Enough people of ill-will exist that the "people of goodwill" is a moot argument now!
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And I think the people of Ireland should just get together and fix the problem of Northern Ireland so that Sinn Fein and the Ulster Unionists can agree to work together toward a more prosperous and peaceful united Ireland.

Unfortunately it isn't so simple in practice, no matter how good the intention.
 
sean99 said:
And I think the people of Ireland should just get together and fix the problem of Northern Ireland so that Sinn Fein and the Ulster Unionists can agree to work together toward a more prosperous and peaceful united Ireland.

Unfortunately it isn't so simple in practice, no matter how good the intention.
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Alas, very true and very apposite - the similar case of two groups of people who exist within a zero-sum game.
 
Ciunas Audio said:
Just watch the upcoming mid-term elections & see how the GOP will just about scrape enough votes to get control of the house & your country is heading down the sewer fast. I hope I'm wrong in this prediction but I fear I'm not
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If the GOP regains control of the House, but not the Senate, then all a GOP house can really do is obstruct for two years.
 
sean99 said:
And I think the people of Ireland should just get together and fix the problem of Northern Ireland so that Sinn Fein and the Ulster Unionists can agree to work together toward a more prosperous and peaceful united Ireland.

Unfortunately it isn't so simple in practice, no matter how good the intention.
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Right but a lot of the structural problems with the system have been resolved in N.I. and peace reigns since 1998
That is a rational approach to the issue, not some airy-fairy notion of relying on the goodwill of people.
As an example Gerrymandering was addressed in NI thereby preventing the in-built political bias towards Unionists from remaining in power disproportionally.
So you see goodwill can be woven into the fabric of how a society is structured even in somewhere as divisive as N.I.

It will take some generations before the wounds of the past heal enough that the scars are mere blemishes & not longer sore to touch
 
tones said:
Alas, very true and very apposite - the similar case of two groups of people who exist within a zero-sum game.
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Sorry, but not similar at all except at the very meta level you state.

BTW, the term goodwill is a complete red herring, anyway -
There are enough stupid people who believe wholeheartedly that they are opposing the destruction of their nation, their way of life, their very existence. These people are acting out of self-preservation and often they feel their actions are based on saving their nation from such destructive forces - they are acting out of goodwill for their nation.

"Goodwill" is such a blah idea!
 
Ciunas Audio said:
I agree but what I thought you were saying was that it's not possible to change the constitution or the judiciary, so why bother - you have to JUST rely on "people of good character"?

But your electoral system is broken so your advise to "vitally important not to elect lying assholes" is almost redundant - an impossible task as the system is biased against this. Having a meaningful electoral system would help improve the disenchantment with politics that appears to afflict a large portion of the US population - the ones that don't bother to vote

Just watch the upcoming mid-term elections & see how the GOP will just about scrape enough votes to get control of the house & your country is heading down the sewer fast. I hope I'm wrong in this prediction but I fear I'm not

So I already said - get rid of the electoral college system of voting & see the Senate change to better represent the people - change it to a popular voting system. This will remove the gerrymandering of states/counties.
Get rid of the unlimited money donations allowed in politics - that will help curtail some of the nefarious pressure groups in politics.

I would also get rid of the 2nd amendment for the sake of your children's lives

These are just some of the obvious changes needed (I'm sure there are more) - whether they require constitutional change or not, I don't know - I'm no constitutional lawyer.

But the fact of the matter is that the system itself is broken & is allowing democracy to be side-lined by fascism. Enough people of ill-will exist that the "people of goodwill" is a moot argument now!
Click to expand...
You do not have to be a constitutional lawyer to know you do not just 'get rid' of things in a written constitution that specifies a stringent process for changing it. We agree that there is big political trouble in the US now.
 
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