Parlour trick

[BE718]

I've avoided answering it, and will continue not to answer it, because it will go one of two ways:

If I say 'I didn't hear anything' then the discussion will centre on how it is all a sham and nothing was perceived. With a side-order of carping about sighted tests.

If I say 'I heard differences' then the discussion will centre on how I was grievously duped. With a side order of carping about sighted tests.

Not playing. All yours. Have fun.

So the whole premise of a demo in this way is obviously flawed regardless of whether they conned people or not.

 

[BE718]

“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”


― Mark Twain

......

 

[h.g.]

Conversely Nordost may be protecting themselves from what they view as an internet warrior with an agenda making up slurs. None of us know where the truth lies here, and I'm tempted to side with the one who is prepared to take it to court if necessary.

Nordost are certainly protecting themselves.

The degree to which the blogger is an internet warrior with an agenda against Nordost I don't know but it shouldn't be too hard to find out for those with an interest.

Why do you need to take a side? It has the ring of truth given the nature of the audiophile cable business but whether it is true or not in these two particular reported cases I doubt anyone here is in a position to prove with evidence that will stand up in court. And given Jim's point even that may not be enough here in the UK.

 

[h.g.]

Surely when you say 'magic tricks like this' you mean 'magic tricks such as have been alleged and those allegations subsequently withdrawn'.

No I meant what I said. Magic tricks like the two that were described which use a small increase in volume to make one bit of hi-fi sound "better" than another. Your removal of the context is rather telling since the truth or otherwise of the allegations was not part of it. I don't know the blogger, the people in the audience, the chap doing the demo and so little about the Nordost company I am not sure how to spell the name. Of course I could look it up but it was not relevant to the point being made.

 

[Paul R]

<moderating>

It is worth pointing out that the content from www.realhd-audio.com, a site that appears to be a blog by the article writer Mark Waldrep, has been self-removed as a result of a Cease And Desist order from Nordost. As everyone knows truth is a defence against charges of libel, yet the author/site owner caved and removed it. As such it is IMHO most unwise to give the removed content any weight or credibility at all.

PS Here's Waldrep's retraction: www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5677

I think you're thoroughly wrong on this, and would have acted exactly the same had you posted your impressions of a Nordost demo (which is what was reported, not a direct accusation of fraud) and had a heavy weight legal action threatened by a company with very deep pockets.

Paul

 

[Andrew.B]

I've seen people back down before when they were in the right, when a certain well known seller of 'giant killer' budget dacs threatened legal action on people posting pics of the insides in comparison with an OEM version, as well as rampant shill posting. People don't like being subject to litigation.

 

[Andrew.B]

“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”


― Mark Twain

iseewhatyoudidthar

 

[davidsrsb]

I think that nobody has been claiming that this was Nordost policy vs a rogue salesmans unauthorised actions. Given what cable markups are like, I dread to think what nonsense goes on out there

 

[Lee T]

You are assuming a blog-writer without the confidence to stand behind his words is telling the truth. That is a huge assumption IMO, especially with the current fashion for knocking cables, accessories etc. Nordorst do publicly demonstrate their goods, and as it is not a blind test anyone is able to see if the demonstrator is riding the volume knob or not. By the fact they are prepared to risk a potentially costly legal challenge could also be viewed as their confidence in their dem/test methodology.

PS I am not siding with Nordorst, I have no horse in this race, I'm just very wary of unsubstantiated internet claims as I have in my time seen many bare-faced lies and personal slurs made from entrenched agenda positions.

Maybe this should be posted at the top of every cable thread from here on in, very sensible & intelligent post from someone who has absolutely no agenda here.

Maybe you should visit such a thread more often Tony to add some sanity to the insanity that usually ensues.

But they do come with a health warning as you know.

 

[radamel]

Maybe this should be posted at the top of every cable thread from here on in, very sensible & intelligent post from someone who has absolutely no agenda here.

Maybe you should visit such a thread more often Tony to add some sanity to the insanity that usually ensues.

But they do come with a health warning as you know.

+1. Great post by Tony!

 

[whatsnext]

Some vendors of cables offer money back deals. As much as one can it is potentially possible to try a cable for what it may bring to your system. If you hear something in your own time and space then you are happy to spend. Trouble is your thinking will already have been seeded with the idea it might make a difference.

Love cable threads

 

[hammeredklavier]

Some vendors of cables offer money back deals. As much as one can it is potentially possible to try a cable for what it may bring to your system. If you hear something in your own time and space then you are happy to spend. Trouble is your thinking will already have been seeded with the idea it might make a difference.

Love cable threads

Let's face it, we've all swapped out our cables at some point in the past and we've all 'heard' the difference.

And most people here are bright enough and have enough technical knowledge to know that cables cannot possibly make an audible difference.

We'll all travel our own road to Damascus...

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

Let's face it, we've all swapped out our cables at some point in the past and we've all 'heard' the difference.

Actually, contentious as it may be. When I've experimented with different cables I don't usually hear much difference. Only real exceptions have been when there has been a fairly traditional explanation. e.g. cartridge loading capacitance.

This was also the case some years ago when I did tests (measurements) on some 5meter runs of various LS cables people let me have to examine. I could easily measure differences, but not hear much in the way of any changes.

 

[AndyU]

Obviously the blogger was suffering from expectation bias that salesmen are deceitful. There is absolutely no need to rig a cable dem because the placebo effect will, as we all know, cause all listeners to hear a difference even when there is none.

 

[Lee T]

Let's face it, we've all swapped out our cables at some point in the past and we've all 'heard' the difference.

And most people here are bright enough and have enough technical knowledge to know that cables cannot possibly make an audible difference.

We'll all travel our own road to Damascus...

It's all relative.

Not all equipment is designed equally, some respond to cables differently, output & input impedance will play a part as will the design of the amplifier, ask any Naim owner if all cables allow their equipment to sound the same.

Now before Keith's microchip kicks in, yes i know any well designed cable will have no effect on any well designed & well engineered amp or whatever, but & it's a big but, not all are engineered this way, they are engineered, especially at the budget end, to fit in with price & the engineers personal view on how it should sound, tuned, if you will, to fit in with the companies "sound".

A blanket statement to the effect, all cables should sound the same with any equipment, is very wrong imo.

 

[mattgbell]

The degree to which the blogger is an internet warrior with an agenda against Nordost I don't know but it shouldn't be too hard to find out for those with an interest.

Well, we do know the blogger (Mark Waldrep) was on the money about the fraudulent marketing video for Audioquest HDMI cables. See my post #14 above.

 

[hammeredklavier]

It's all relative.

Not all equipment is designed equally, some respond to cables differently, output & input impedance will play a part as will the design of the amplifier, ask any Naim owner if all cables allow their equipment to sound the same.

Now before Keith's microchip kicks in, yes i know any well designed cable will have no effect on any well designed & well engineered amp or whatever, but & it's a big but, not all are engineered this way, they are engineered, especially at the budget end, to fit in with price & the engineers personal view on how it should sound, tuned, if you will, to fit in with the companies "sound".

A blanket statement to the effect, all cables should sound the same with any equipment, is very wrong imo.

Well there is some, admittedly slightly shaky, reason why speaker cables might make an audible difference, but even then, not much.

Mains leads? Bearing in mind that, provided they're not clipping, an entire amplifier is usually transparent, you're certainly going to struggle to hear the mains lead aren't you?

As I said in another thread, there might sometimes be exceptional cases where some of these things might be sufficiently audible to ABX, i.e. a particularly problematic sample, played very loud, with active speakers of exceptional quality, with a very young listener trained to pick out specific artefacts... but even then, even if aurally detectable, we're talking about things that cannot possibly, even tongue in cheek, be said to have even the remotest musical significance.

 

[sq225917]

If I was frigging the volume I'd have a nice big volume display that never changed.

But then if I really wanted to rig the demo id use a CD where the tracks were edited such that there's was a volume level increase partway through the track. All you have to do is pause at the right point....

 

[Lee T]

Well there is some, admittedly slightly shaky, reason why speaker cables might make an audible difference, but even then, not much.

Mains leads? Bearing in mind that, provided they're not clipping, an entire amplifier is usually transparent, you're certainly going to struggle to hear the mains lead aren't you?

As I said in another thread, there might sometimes be exceptional cases where some of these things might be sufficiently audible to ABX, i.e. a particularly problematic sample, played very loud, with active speakers of exceptional quality, with a very young listener trained to pick out specific artefacts... but even then, even if aurally detectable, we're talking about things that cannot possibly, even tongue in cheek, be said to have even the remotest musical significance.

Have you never experienced a difference in a blind dem with hifi equipment. It is how i purchased anything back in the day when i purchased new, my local Music matters would to hide when they saw me coming

I find this post quite wrong on every level from my experience with hifi equipment over the last 30 years or so.

If you think you need thousands of pounds worth of equipment & golden ears to hear improvements, i feel for you.

What equipment do you own, just out of curiosity because based on this post, you should own something very, very cheap, all linked together with bellwire from maplins, if you don't, why not, if all sounds the same.

I would edge my bets & say your system comes in above 2 grand, am i wrong?

 

[TPA]

Maybe the 7 page letter arrived with a cheque

I'd be surprised if it was Nordost policy, it would be nigh on impossible to prevent such practices from leaking out when employees left etc, I doubt even a robust NDA would be valid if it involved duping customers.