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Parlour trick

venton said:
For me to tell the difference between two things, I need to
a) concentrate on a very specific part of the sound (hihat, bass, guitar, whatever).
b) Make the switch very quickly
If I don't do either of the above I can't tell a difference accurately.
It's not so easy though when the change over takes minutes - so if I can't do a quick switch I usually live with each for a day or two before deciding.
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I'm usually with you Venton on most things but in this instance i have to say this, if you need to concentrate this intensely to hear a difference, what is the point.

Whenever i do any comparisons i do the exact opposite & let the music do the talking rather than me focussing too hard, i always have the volume at a low level also, much better to assess things in my experience, i find i hear improvements much easier this way, if i had to concentrate on one area of the music to hear the improvement, i honestly wouldn't bother, it's either an improvement while listening naturally or not worth the bother imo.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
I think you might be missing the point. im sure Nordost knows exactly how its cables perform. What it doesn't know, and can't control, is how the blogger might respond.
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That makes little sense. If they know how their cables perform, which of course they do, they will not go near any controlled test involving anybody never mind a blogger that also knows how their cables perform and is likely to tell people.

It is interesting to see Nordost have a go at sighted demos over which they have full control to try to guide the audience in their favour. It cannot be an easy trick to pull off and so hats off to them. I am not sure why so few unbelievers fail to be entertained by these magic shows with most appearing to be upset on behalf of the people that want to believe in the magic. Po-faced lot.
 
If I splash out £11k for an Odin 2 mains cable would it be on a sale or return basis. That shows confidence.

Me try not you show(man).
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Well, perhaps. But I suspect what would be more likely would be that the blogger would attend the demo and claim that he didn't perceive the level change he observed at the show dem, or, perhaps, would claim that he couldn't be sure that any changes he perceived correlated to those he reported observing at the show dem. Only he would know the truth of any claims he made, because we're talking about his personal, ie subjective, perceptions, remember. Which would make this a huge risk for Nordost, with a low probability of any sort of payoff.

If you were a businessman, and had the option to either: take this risk, with the chance of a favourable outcome depending on the honesty and goodwill of a person who has gone into print accusing you of cheating; or, send him a sternly worded letter from your lawyers, in all honesty, given your duty to your shareholders, which decision do you think you'd make?
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If Nordorst had confidence in the performance of the product and validity of the demo why would it be a risk? They take the product to hifi shows and confidently demonstrate it allegedly making a positive difference. A difference that can apparently be readily identified under those less than ideal circumstances. So why would they go all shy about a bit of scrutiny?

The scrutinised demo doesnt have to be with the blogger alone, it can be with a range of people attending, just so long as the demo/test could be scrutinised by him and an independent 3rd party. The honesty of the blogger then becomes irrelevant.
 
Alan Sircom said:
The person in question has a reputation in the trade for making 'contentious' claims then refusing to do anything until legally obligated. In fairness, I've had no great run-ins with him, so I don't know whether this reputation is deserved or groundless.

Thinking about this cynically, making claims like this are good for site traffic, both to his forum and the AIX Records site. In a similar cynical vein, it's also better for one's online reputation to be 'gagged' than to 'back down'.

His music content - on DVD-Audio and Blu-ray - is supposedly consistently very good. I have a couple of his discs and they are excellent.
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All the more reason for Nordorst to take advantage of the situation and use the situation and publicity to demonstrate their products efficacy, but no they prefer lawyers. Odd...very odd....
 
The thing which puzzles me about all of the this brouhaha is that I can't imagine there are many people who buy this kind of product and accept that a small difference in volume is likely to be misperceived as an increase in sound quality. Surely Nordost buyers know that they couldn't be fooled.
 
If anyone is sucked in by a small increase in volume & equates this to being an improvement then good luck to them, they need it.
 
I can't watch the whole thing Werner because it's just absolute tosh. They're trying to tell us that they need a sonar specialist with a doctorate in maths to produce a couple of very basic time/amplitude graphs and subtract the two to produce some differential data. I'd really, really, really like to think that a company like Nordost or vertex had the nouse to be able to do that themselves.

Aside from which whatever happened to make one change at a time? Nobody of a remotely scientific back ground would bother to go through this process without isolating each element, cables stands etc. prior to measurements. What a pair of plonkers.
 
TPA said:
I can't watch the whole thing Werner because it's just absolute tosh. They're trying to tell us that they need a sonar specialist with a doctorate in maths to produce a couple of very basic time/amplitude graphs and subtract the two to produce some differential data...
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...and screw it up in the process, and let the results masquerade as proof. The whole episode was an absolute gem.
 
Ragaman said:
If anyone is sucked in by a small increase in volume & equates this to being an improvement then good luck to them, they need it.
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You're very unusual if you don't typically prefer the music when turned up a bit (up to a point, of course).
 
Werner said:
...and screw it up in the process, and let the results masquerade as proof. The whole episode was an absolute gem.
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They ought to be subjected to a cease and desist order for that episode of pseudo tosh.
 
TPA said:
Aside from which whatever happened to make one change at a time? Nobody of a remotely scientific back ground would bother to go through this process without isolating each element, cables stands etc. prior to measurements. What a pair of plonkers.
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They are not plonkers. They are salesman doing the job of selling expensive audiophile power cables. If they were to do anything remotely along the lines you and others seem to be suggesting then they would indeed be plonkers because it would pretty much guarantee zero sales.

How well they are doing their job is hard to judge. I found Roy Gregory irritating which I would not expect of a good salesman and it lead me to only skimming the video. However I am not a potential purchaser of the products and it would be interesting to know how he came across to those that are.
 
Ragaman said:
I'm usually with you Venton on most things but in this instance i have to say this, if you need to concentrate this intensely to hear a difference, what is the point.

Whenever i do any comparisons i do the exact opposite & let the music do the talking rather than me focussing too hard, i always have the volume at a low level also, much better to assess things in my experience, i find i hear improvements much easier this way, if i had to concentrate on one area of the music to hear the improvement, i honestly wouldn't bother, it's either an improvement while listening naturally or not worth the bother imo.
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An example was going to Tidal from Spotify. Spotify at 320 lossy but excellent, Tidal 1411 Flac. I dare say I would fail a double blind on this if they were played minutes apart. Most people would I think. The mind plays tricks.
But by having them both playing the same track at once and switching, I could hear the difference, more fizzle in the highs, more kick in the lows. Because I could tell them apart and preferred Tidal, I decided the extra money was worth it.
I'm aware that expectation bias can play a part and didn't want to end up out of pocket as a victim to it.
 
I was quite happy until everyone kept telling me things don't make a difference. Now I like to double double check that I'm not imagining things. Quick fire changing is the only way of convincing myself there is a difference as opposed to thinking there is a difference. It's not always possible, in fact, usually not.
I'm probably getting to the point again where I trust my own judgement, it makes things a lot easier!
 
Whaleblue said:
You're very unusual if you don't typically prefer the music when turned up a bit (up to a point, of course).
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Why?

My system sounds great at low volumes, it's how i usually listen, my Rotel amp never goes past 8 o clock in my small room, what's odd about it.I'm lucky enough that my system sings at low levels, fully involving.

I would worry about my system if i needed to turn up the volume to enjoy my music more.
 
Ragaman said:
Why?
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It's to do with the non-linear response of the human ear.

At lower volumes low and high frequencies will sound disproportionately quiet, compared to the mids.

As volume increases the experienced FR will begin to flatten out - which will typically sound better.
 
Not in my experience, i hear excellent clear highs & solid crisp lows in this room though all rooms are different so it will be relative.
I'm not arguing for the sake of it but can homestly say my system sounds no better to me when turned up, it just gets louder, my room is quite well damped so may have something to do with matters, i don't suffer reflection problems, the sound does stay uniform thoughout.

I rarely sit in the same place to listen to music, there seems no sweet spot & do quite a lot of listening while rambling around the house doing jobs, it's just how i listen.
 
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