Open letter denouncing the "restriction of debate".
- Thread starter Joe Hutch
- Start date
Tony L
Administrator
The point is it has always existed. You’d never have got a pro-South African apartheid speaker at a university in the ‘80s (aside from maybe the most elitist white supremacist fringes of Oxbridge), nor would the NF have been platformed without incident/serious disruption in the ‘70s. Young folk have been defining their platforms for as long as I can remember, and that is *exactly* as it should be. As mentioned upthread now these folk have access to electronic platforms far outside of universities and the independent music and arts counterculture a load of whiny wealthy white middle-aged men and similar social conservatives and power-brokers are getting pissed off about it. Who the hell cares?!
mansr
Objectionist
Then why are some saying it doesn't exist? Which is it?
mansr
Objectionist
Another idiotic response to that "open letter" is that the only victims are rich celebrities who deserved to be taken down a peg anyway. Besides not being true (when it happens to regular people, it doesn't make the news), it still doesn't make it right. Would it be OK for police to beat up a few rich folk as long as they left black people alone?
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
Ah yes, but who gets to decide who or what is 'truly radical and progressive'? Them pesky kids?
Neither would I. I would instead advise anyone intending to sign an open letter to read it through carefully, decide whether they support its aims, and not then 'un-sign' it because they disapprove of/disagree with some other signatories on various issues.
In a sense, it's the same problem we had with Corbyn and Brexit. Instead of saying to himself 'this is a huge, once-in-a-generation issue, which is framed in binary terms, so I'll put aside my many differences with Cameron and campaign with him for Remain', he stood on his ideological purity and distanced himself from the main Remain campaign. As Voltaire put it, all too often 'the best is the enemy of the good'.
Tony L
Administrator
But, but, think about the Space Aliens!
(sorry, just joining in the straw man argument)
PS Who is actually being ‘gagged’ by no-platforming? It certainly isn’t multi-millionaires like JK Rowling, Jordon Peterson or even Noam Chomsky. They all have countless other methods of getting their message out and make a remarkably comfortable living in the process. They all have their market and their haters. Far too much of this boils down to very rich people attention-seeking because certain student groups or other pressure groups deemed them to be people that they didn’t want to pay to speak at their student union or wherever for whatever reason. Far too much smacks of bruised egos to me. I don’t see any real denial occurring here.
I see it all as a rite of passage. Young folk have always defined their world, it is what one’s teenage years and early 20s are for. Likewise pressure groups such as LGBT rights, BLM etc. They know *exactly* what they are doing! It is for them to define, and that certainly includes platforming, and people like me, Vuk, JKR, Jordon Peterson etc etc to just STFU and listen and learn. They certainly don’t need me to 57 year old straight white mansplain what being black or trans is about! So much seems to be about that when you really look at it, and it is truly pathetic IMHO.
droodzilla
pfm Member
Yes. Absolutely.
OK, you got me. No.
But it's an interesting thought experiment isn't it: how quickly would police brutality and bias be addressed if it mainly affected wealthy white people?
Dave H.
Revolutionary relativist
Quite. Isn’t there a nice illustrative stat for this kind of argument, about the money spent on malaria drugs vs viagra? Can’t remember it off the top of my head but will look up later if I get chance.
Thorn
pfm Member
It's amusing how known left wingers have become part of the Conservative elite by signing that letter, and how those of us who support it are tarred with the alt-right brush in an effort to change our minds.
The reaction to JKR's comments by a small group has attracted attention far beyond either their importance and the importance of her views, but certainly shows that there is a move to shut up those who don't toe the party line.
Joe, I'll take issue with Wikipedia's definition of boomers. Boomers are those who were born during the baby boom when the troops came home after WWII. I'm a boomer, but whether my sister, born in 1951, counts, I'd doubt.
The reaction to JKR's comments by a small group has attracted attention far beyond either their importance and the importance of her views, but certainly shows that there is a move to shut up those who don't toe the party line.
Joe, I'll take issue with Wikipedia's definition of boomers. Boomers are those who were born during the baby boom when the troops came home after WWII. I'm a boomer, but whether my sister, born in 1951, counts, I'd doubt.
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
Phew! That lets me out too. Maybe my views will magically become more acceptable now I'm no longer tarred with the Boomer brush.
Cheese
Bitter lover
whiny wealthy white middle-aged men: I guess I am supposed to be one of them, like every other white +40 man, no matter what they've done with their lives, or how much they have inherited if at all. Unless earning their monthly wage by working 9-5 in a white-run company is already too much of a privilege ?
Mistakes have been made, so let the present generation make the same mistakes the other way round. I am sure some people will manage to explain me that this is justice.
Cheese
Bitter lover
Not entirely untrue.
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
I'd be surprised if any of us qualify as 'wealthy'. I'd take that to mean people with multiple millions of pounds, several properties around the world, private yacht, private jet, trophy wife and perma-tan. For myself, I'd say I'm comfortably-off rather than rich or wealthy.
Of course it's nothing to do with justice. It's young folk having a go at protesting about something, and getting their keks in a twist about older people joining in, when by rights they should be watching Midsomer Murders and STFU.
Of course it's nothing to do with justice. It's young folk having a go at protesting about something, and getting their keks in a twist about older people joining in, when by rights they should be watching Midsomer Murders and STFU.
Tony L
Administrator
FWIW I do too. Technically I’m just inside the Wikipedia definition (1963). I had none of the benefits of ‘full-employment’, a ‘job for life’, ‘affordable housing’ etc and exited school in ‘79 with little qualifications straight into the mass unemployment and post-industrial wasteland of Thatcherism up north. As such I feel way more like a ‘Gen X’ as that was my life experience. It couldn’t have been any different as I left school as soon as I could get out of the place, i.e. it was impossible to hit the job market any earlier than I did. By saying that every last punk rock band were boomers, and that does make me giggle, they are all older than me!
Tony L
Administrator
For me it means ‘safe’ and ‘secure’. If you’ve ever been neither of those things they really do carry some weight. FWIW I would describe myself as ‘wealthy’ as I own my own (very modest wreck of a) house, have zero debt, and enough money in the bank and other assets to survive for years without any assistance. I am self-sufficient. I never have to worry about not paying the rent or electric bill, and I know exactly what it is like not to eat or to have to sell stuff you like to do both those things.
PS Most of the celebrities whinging about “cancel culture“ are of course exceptionally wealthy. Far too much of this actually translates to: “Boo hoo, they don’t want to pay me to spout my opinion on their platform!”. It is utterly pathetic.
droodzilla
pfm Member
Are you wealthy?
https://www.ifs.org.uk/tools_and_resources/where_do_you_fit_in
Surprised to discover that even on my modest postgraduate stipend (topped up with income from teaching), my household income is in the top 38%. I assume it's because I don't have children.
Corrected: I originally used my gross rather than net income; I am not in the top 20%!
https://www.ifs.org.uk/tools_and_resources/where_do_you_fit_in
Surprised to discover that even on my modest postgraduate stipend (topped up with income from teaching), my household income is in the top 38%. I assume it's because I don't have children.
Corrected: I originally used my gross rather than net income; I am not in the top 20%!
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vuk
\o/ choose anarchy
@droodzilla , @matthewr
this is NOT about free speech, it's about something far more basic. in terms of the current student (or student-age) generation, i think it's fantastic that so many have been able to break through massive ideological dogma to question capitalism, criticize israel, demand climate change action and denounce imperialist wars. on the other hand, they also seem to want to make a meal of things which have been largely addressed/redressed by previous generations in the realm of civil rights. as it happens, it always seems to be in the latter domain that a relatively trivial difference of opinion or a vague remark leads to all out war and wholesale dismissal of people. hey, if it just stayed on twitter, it would be one thing, but when people are losing their jobs, that's quite another. are you familiar with the mob incident(s) at evergreen state? you may want to watch the video of all that.
this is NOT about free speech, it's about something far more basic. in terms of the current student (or student-age) generation, i think it's fantastic that so many have been able to break through massive ideological dogma to question capitalism, criticize israel, demand climate change action and denounce imperialist wars. on the other hand, they also seem to want to make a meal of things which have been largely addressed/redressed by previous generations in the realm of civil rights. as it happens, it always seems to be in the latter domain that a relatively trivial difference of opinion or a vague remark leads to all out war and wholesale dismissal of people. hey, if it just stayed on twitter, it would be one thing, but when people are losing their jobs, that's quite another. are you familiar with the mob incident(s) at evergreen state? you may want to watch the video of all that.
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
Well, quite. I'm relatively wealthy in that I've paid off my mortgage, and so all the equity in my house belongs to my wife and me.