Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+6)?
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ff1d1l
pfm Member
That is an excellent article - thanks for posting.
Worse: here’s how the shameless Brexit Bunch plan to survive the mess they have created – by going overseas. John Redwood has recommended investors consider opportunities abroad. The Living Fossil Rees-Mogg is part of a financial operation expanding in EU-affirming Ireland. Lord Lawson, when not offering his expert opinions on climate change, premenstrual tension, or whatever else he claims to know about, is seeking French residency. Nigel Farage has been looking for German passports for his family. And Lord Ashcroft recommends that investors consider opportunities in Malta. How many of the 17 million Brexit voters have the same opportunities?
And
What is the purpose of truth and facts and news in a world of disinformation, where lying at the top has become normalised? The slippery concept of ‘balance’ needs to be rethought. Serious politicians and real experts cannot be ‘balanced’ by obscure talking heads whose main qualification is a university degree in blarney.
And, beautifully
In the post-Trump post-Brexit world, how can we re-build trust unless we can point out lies when they occur? Broadcasters, especially, need to reflect a wide range of opinions. But confronting expert opinion and elected representatives on television with articulate know-nothing non-experts of dubious provenance financed by who-knows-what, is not ‘balance’. It is a disservice to our people, our country, and to facts, accuracy and fairness.
Swamp Thing
Remainiac Terrorist
Relativism appearing where it is not best used, especially in journalism, is not a recent Brexit phenomena.
Journalists are almost always, at best, humanities graduates. They actually believe that in the fire of the dialectic the impurities will be burned off and the pure metal of the truth will be exposed.
But the dialectical method assumes that both parties, initially holding different views, want to know what the truth really is. This has not been the case for some time.
The very initial arguments themselves are unlikely to have been created through reason. Focus groups and surveys test policy ideas to see what will be well received. Not well received based on reason and argument. But pandering to prejudice and belief. Neither side wants a cold examination. Soundbite vs soundbite. The worst of our natures engaged. To get and have power is the goal. Instead of what you will do with it.
But what is worse is that it has become so OK to just lie. Davis lied repeatedly to Parliamentary committees and to the House. Trump and his aides repeatedly lied about meeting Russian diplomats. As did Aaron Banks. Leave promised Norway when people worried about leaving the CU. Leave promised the anything to get the vote. nOt only did the media not hold anyone to account, but that our political bodies did not.
Lying is OK now.
Nobody is held to account by the media.
And most political parties are glad of the lack of scrutiny. Because almost all policies won't stand up to any proper analysis.
"Experts" were left behind a long time ago.
Journalists are almost always, at best, humanities graduates. They actually believe that in the fire of the dialectic the impurities will be burned off and the pure metal of the truth will be exposed.
But the dialectical method assumes that both parties, initially holding different views, want to know what the truth really is. This has not been the case for some time.
The very initial arguments themselves are unlikely to have been created through reason. Focus groups and surveys test policy ideas to see what will be well received. Not well received based on reason and argument. But pandering to prejudice and belief. Neither side wants a cold examination. Soundbite vs soundbite. The worst of our natures engaged. To get and have power is the goal. Instead of what you will do with it.
But what is worse is that it has become so OK to just lie. Davis lied repeatedly to Parliamentary committees and to the House. Trump and his aides repeatedly lied about meeting Russian diplomats. As did Aaron Banks. Leave promised Norway when people worried about leaving the CU. Leave promised the anything to get the vote. nOt only did the media not hold anyone to account, but that our political bodies did not.
Lying is OK now.
Nobody is held to account by the media.
And most political parties are glad of the lack of scrutiny. Because almost all policies won't stand up to any proper analysis.
"Experts" were left behind a long time ago.
MVV
pfm Member
Like a lot of things I doubt it is deliberate. More a kind of unholy synergy between the egos of the power hungry and the egos of those in the news media. I noticed it particularly when I visited the US recently. There is this huge rolling news industry, like a furnace, that needs feeding. Trump feeds it and it matters little what self serving utterance he makes today because another will be along tomorrow to eclipse it. It works wonderfully for both parties Trump gets his soundbite out they get something to broadcast and the cycle repeats. Then of course there is the public. We play our part- fast food and fast news we want stuff quick and easy.
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
Great Esler article, thanks. I think it was Armando Iannucci, while explaining his thoughts on satire being usurped by Trump etc., who said that a 'balanced' BBC interview with Churchill and Hitler would now probably go something like "Well Mr Churchill, doesn't Mr Hitler have a point, when he says there are too many Romani?"
They really have got to stop giving unquestioned exposure to uninformed opinion. Lawson on climate change was a good example, indeed Lawson on most things.
They really have got to stop giving unquestioned exposure to uninformed opinion. Lawson on climate change was a good example, indeed Lawson on most things.
simon g
Older, wiser but no longer retired
An interesting Lecture, that provides some historical context. Plus ca change plus c’est la meme chose, also comes to mind.
https://www.gresham.ac.uk/lecture/transcript/download/entry-into-the-european-community-1971-73/
https://www.gresham.ac.uk/lecture/transcript/download/entry-into-the-european-community-1971-73/
MikeMA
pfm Member
Apparently HM Treasury has been busy switching the UK's currency reserves into Euros, in anticipation of us crashing out with no deal and the GBP sinking even further.
Meanwhile, UK supermarket chiefs are predicting shortages, a 12% rise in food prices and civil unrest if we leave without a deal.
Meanwhile, UK supermarket chiefs are predicting shortages, a 12% rise in food prices and civil unrest if we leave without a deal.
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
Ah that's all part of the Brexit dividend, solve the obesity crisis by making it more expensive to eat. Unfortunately, it will likely be good food up by more than 12% with crap food staying much the same. Those shares in Greggs are safe.
kendo
Prussian bot
I'm finding food prices and pretty much everything else went up by more than 10% as soon as the referendum result was announced.
It would be nice if some Brexit Enabler could advise me as to when I can expect to get my money back and recoup my losses.
Thanks, in expectation...
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
Don’t forget rioting burns calories too so we’ll be seeing leaner Gammon, ‘specially if we get a vassal job in the end.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
That nice Mr. Mogg says about sometime in the next 50 years- an he’s a money expert.
jackbarron
Chelsea, London
This is an excellent article by Gavin Esler on Brexit and why he has moved from an acceptance of the Referendum result to fighting against it.
It is educational to see a well known former BBC reporter pull apart the Brexit fantasists and supposed media experts like Nigel Lawson and the so-called Taxpayer's Alliance spokesperson Chloe Westley.
Esler's notion that balanced reporting impinges when politicians continuously lie and spread hate is very relevant. I mean how many times do we have to see Nigel Farage or Sarah Huckabee Sanders say Trump it telling the truth, when it is so obvious they are all in it together.
As Esler points out: "We don’t ‘balance’ arguments on child protection by hearing advocates for paedophilia, nor do we confront anti-slavery campaigners with racists arguing that other people can be personal property."
What makes Esler's debunking of Brexit even more resonant is he reported on the EU Referendum campaigns while they were taking place. Remain are also criticized.
"Remain was rightly ridiculed for inept scaremongering. Voters lacked positive reasons to understand why a trading bloc of two dozen rich nations is a good idea. Instead we got ‘Project Fear’."
Some journalists can get it right, even now.
Jack
eternumviti
Insufficient privileges to reply.
Well, there it is, at least to me. Neither do I see any reason why 'a trading bloc of two dozen rich nations' is not a good idea. It's a marvellous idea, and I'm all for it.
The title of Estler's piece was more than slightly misleading. It played the (potential) reader by insinuating that he was originally pro-Brexit. He wasn't.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
Indeed. The BBC, in neglecting to see this and act on it, has arguably failed in its duty to the nation.
jackbarron
Chelsea, London
The Observer says that more than 100 seats which backed Brexit now want to Remain in the EU. These include Gove and Johnson's. https://www.theguardian.com/politic...witch-to-remain?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Facebook
"More than 100 Westminster constituencies that voted to leave the EU have now switched their support to Remain, according to a stark new analysis seen by the Observer.
"In findings that could have a significant impact on the parliamentary battle of Brexit later this year, the study concludes that most seats in Britain now contain a majority of voters who want to stay in the EU.
"The analysis, one of the most comprehensive assessments of Brexit sentiment since the referendum, suggests the shift has been driven by doubts among Labour voters who backed Leave.
"As a result, the trend is starkest in the north of England and Wales – Labour heartlands in which Brexit sentiment appears to be changing. The development will heap further pressure on Jeremy Corbyn to soften the party’s opposition to reconsidering Britain’s EU departure."
Corbyn needs to change his stance asap. If he doesn't, a lot of people won't vote for Labour.
Ah, just noticed a link to this article has already been put up. I'll leave this here though because I've added quotes from the piece.
Jack
"More than 100 Westminster constituencies that voted to leave the EU have now switched their support to Remain, according to a stark new analysis seen by the Observer.
"In findings that could have a significant impact on the parliamentary battle of Brexit later this year, the study concludes that most seats in Britain now contain a majority of voters who want to stay in the EU.
"The analysis, one of the most comprehensive assessments of Brexit sentiment since the referendum, suggests the shift has been driven by doubts among Labour voters who backed Leave.
"As a result, the trend is starkest in the north of England and Wales – Labour heartlands in which Brexit sentiment appears to be changing. The development will heap further pressure on Jeremy Corbyn to soften the party’s opposition to reconsidering Britain’s EU departure."
Corbyn needs to change his stance asap. If he doesn't, a lot of people won't vote for Labour.
Ah, just noticed a link to this article has already been put up. I'll leave this here though because I've added quotes from the piece.
Jack
matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
Indeed. This is the first time I have seen a journalist address the "opinions on the flatness of the earth vary" balance issue. And all the more mystifying as the BBC already realised this mistake with climate change and addressed the issue of only ever being able to find re-animated corpse Lord Lawson to provide the dissenting voice.
MVV
pfm Member
So what will the naughty piglet do now? Without a seat how is the slippery greased piggy going to be crowned king?
Nothing related but an amusing bit re Mogg, I recently saw him described as "what a stupid person thinks a clever person is like"
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