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Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+16)?

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Martin Rowson on the PM's plea to Brussels for a better deal – cartoon

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Source> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...a-to-brussels-for-a-better-deal-cartoon#img-1

Look, there's rees smug lurking in a cardboard box on the right where he belongs.
 
Come on, TM is doing this for us. Here's the beginning of the latest news letter:

Brexit
PM: We can deliver the change you voted for

Prime Minister Theresa May writes in the Grimsby Telegraph.

6:09pm, 8 March 2019: First published.

Important EU Exit information for UK nationals if there’s no deal

European Union (EU) exit information for UK nationals in the absence of a withdrawal agreement.

5:18pm, 8 March 2019: Updated with links on transporting horses and endangered plants.

UK sanctions regimes if there’s no Brexit deal

This page provides links to legislation and guidance on implementing UK and UN sanctions if the UK leaves the EU without a deal.

3:21pm, 8 March 2019: Added new regime pages for Iran (nuclear) and ISIL (Da’esh) and Al-Qaida.
 
Thanks Avole - The no deal official guidance is chilling. They really seem to mean it. National self harm, made real and official. This week should be interesting - hoping for sense to prevail though we seem to have gone beyond that point.
 
matthewr said:
Corbyn's right. But both are easier to address if you have more money and jobs so it's foolish to not address Brexit as effectively as possible.
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What the remain side doesn't talk about is how to reform the EU. I see no vision - it needs structural reform, increased democracy and transparency, less of the bosses club. As I've said before, the debate really is whether it is capable of being reformed.
 
gavreid said:
As I've said before, the debate really is whether it is capable of being reformed.
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The debate is about whether the U.K. is better off in out or partially in the EU. Talk of whether the EU can be reformed is a distraction. Even if the EU is never reformed the U.K. will still be better off being in than taking a hard Brexit and going alone on world trade.
 
sean99 said:
The debate is about whether the U.K. is better off in out or partially in the EU. Talk of whether the EU can be reformed is a distraction.
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I disagree completely. There's never been a better moment - we'll stay if you do x, y and z. This is what Labour should have been arguing and building support for over the past 2 years.
 
gavreid said:
What the remain side doesn't talk about is how to reform the EU. I see no vision - it needs structural reform, increased democracy and transparency, less of the bosses club. As I've said before, the debate really is whether it is capable of being reformed.
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I don't disagree that it needs reform but first I think we need to fully understand why it is the EU that takes action against massive corporations/banks, strengthens human rights,... when national governments have tended to do the opposite. If it was reorganised along national government lines then I would expect it to respond to populism like a national government and that is likely to be bad for the majority. We need to maximise the proportion of people making important technical decisions that are both technically informed and making them on behalf of the majority. Yes they need to be accountable but making every decisions based on what plays well with whatever segment of the crowd is considered relevant is going very badly for both us and our national government at present. Increased democracy does not lead to better decisions. It is a way to avoid unpopular decisions. To me the EU looks to have about the right balance in terms of democracy but I don't think it has the right balance in the backgrounds of the people making decisions. Finance and politics appear to be over represented.
 
From the BBC website

‘Finland's entire government has resigned over its failure to achieve a key policy goal...’

Will Gov UK follow where the plucky Finns have led? I’m not holding my breath.
 
gavreid said:
I disagree completely. There's never been a better moment - we'll stay if you do x, y and z. This is what Labour should have been arguing and building support for over the past 2 years.
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Ah I see what you mean. I wouldn’t have put it so confrontationally not least because Brexit is showing that the U.K. has the weaker hand. Perhaps “we’d much prefer to remain but we need some tweaking to FOM to be able to get our electorate onside.
 
gavreid said:
What the remain side doesn't talk about is how to reform the EU. I see no vision - it needs structural reform, increased democracy and transparency, less of the bosses club. As I've said before, the debate really is whether it is capable of being reformed.
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I don't think it can be reformed or at least I wouldn't hold my breath. But I don't see it as so catastrophically damaging to be a member of that it's worth giving up significant jobs and money for.

Remember as well that a future Labour government would find lots of social democratic partners to caucus with and wouldn't be hooking up with the right wing, nationalists as Cameron did.
 
sean99 said:
Ah I see what you mean. I wouldn’t have put it so confrontationally not least because Brexit is showing that the U.K. has the weaker hand. Perhaps “we’d much prefer to remain but we need some tweaking to FOM to be able to get our electorate onside.
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Part of the weakness is obviously division and the closeness of the referendum vote but, having gone down the leave alley, the EU has much to gain now from keeping the UK on board. This is a much stronger negotiating hand, than the one they've been playing. Remain at any cost to avoid leave will probably mean long-term political dissatisfaction.
 
gavreid said:
I disagree completely. There's never been a better moment - we'll stay if you do x, y and z. This is what Labour should have been arguing and building support for over the past 2 years.
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There was a better time. When we had the threat of leaving. We have no leverage now.

Stephen
 
I find myself not calm and pretty much in the same place as I was three years ago, but much angrier.
I toyed with voting leave, not because I thought we should, but because I thought the EU would be better off without us. We never really wanted to play ball. Sadly, I still think they'll do better without us deliberately getting hold of the wrong end of every stick. What it means for us, though ...
 
Leaving the EU for the right reasons would be fine with me.

I have yet to remember hearing any though.

We could never accept the Euro, what with her madge!
 
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