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Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+13)?

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ff1d1l said:
No, that was two and a half years ago. You surely don't maintain that changed minds and a new demograhic equals identical?
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I do.

I also think that even if there was another ref (There shouldn't be) ... the longer this goes on, the more would vote for Mays deal in the absence of any other real alternatives, partly as a protest but mostly because it's reasonable, perhaps with some small amendments.

Free movement would be a key and personally I think even more would vote to stop this.

Many don't understand that being part of the customs union, as suggested by some (and not dismissed out of hand by myself) would mean Britain can not independantly negotiate trade deals with the rest of the world but many are concerned with things closer to home, rightly or wrongly.

Just this will almost certainly preclude most already mentioned ways.

Pie in the sky. There will be no second referendum.
 
gavreid said:
True but not so fundamentally. Once May is forced to concede her red lines the Tories will fracture - Corbyn's problem is the on-going threat of a LibDem mark2 / Blair Lite / pro business-anti union, Macron style party. If he get's it wrong he could lose a number of MPs to such an opportunist venture.
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In summary both leaders are playing political calculus while speeding towards a no deal Brexit.
 
notaclue said:
While I'm glad Labour is taking the threat of 'no deal' seriously, I thought the official line was that 'no deal' was a hoax and she would never do it? That is what Starmer has been saying up to now. Presumably the official line was a hoax? :confused:
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Still the line, going by the speech: it' a hoax and preparations represent money spent on PR. But if it's not taken off the table she will continue to use it as a threat to her own MPs, and the negotiations would be a hoax too. This latter at least is simply unarguably correct. Anyone who thinks otherwise, I have a monorail I'd like to sell you.

matthewr said:
I disagree. Assuming he wants to be prime minister the time for constructive ambiguity is over.
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He wants to respect the referendum result. He wants a customs union and close regulatory alignment. It's not ambiguous. It's not very detailed, I grant you. But now, prior not only to negotiation but to being in a position to negotiate, is not the time to fill in all the detail. Now is the time to stop the lunatics with the petrol can and the matches. Doing OK. May looking increasingly snookered. One way or another she's going to split her party.
 
sean99 said:
In summary both leaders are playing political calculus while speeding towards a no deal Brexit.
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It's almost like they had to work within political institutions and constraints.

The solution to this is not to abandon politics (What would that mean? Enlightened military dictatorship?) The solution is to oppose the politics of the party that did this.
 
Would anyone thinking that no deal *definitely* won’t happen care to explain why European governments are currently stepping up their own no deal preparations? Or are the likes of Varadkar and Macron all in on the bluff with May?
 
Seanm said:
It's almost like they had to work within political institutions and constraints.

The solution to this is not to abandon politics (What would that mean? Enlightened military dictatorship?) The solution is to oppose the politics of the party that did this.
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Erm ... it was the electorate. Perhaps cull those that did?
 
The timing of Brexit could be changed until next year, according to The Times. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...WIBLmJgB_3kk--oO0z8ius_-04#Echobox=1547659821

"European Union officials are examining plans to delay Brexit until 2020 after Germany and France indicated their willingness to extend withdrawal negotiations because of Britain’s political turmoil.

"Diplomats and officials are preparing a longer than envisaged extension of the EU’s Article 50 exit procedure because the extent of Theresa May’s defeat in the House of Commons last night.

"Previous planning had centred on a three-month delay to Brexit from March 29th until the end of June, but now, according to multiple sources, EU officials are investigating legal routes to postpone Britain's withdrawal until next year."

I don't have a subscription to The Times, so can't post any more of the story.

Jack
 
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Vinniemac said:
Would anyone thinking that no deal *definitely* won’t happen care to explain why European governments are currently stepping up their own no deal preparations? Or are the likes of Varadkar and Macron all in on the bluff with May?
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They can't take the gamble - they see May as a dodo now
 
Vinniemac said:
Yep. They have personal experience of how deluded and incompetent her government is. So no deal is not a bluff.
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I don't think they equate - those governments have pressures on them too, they'd all be toast if no deal happened and they'd done nothing. Ireland for example gets the bulk of its medicines from the UK, and that's just scratching the surface. It doesn't mean they have to be in on a bluff. See @wacko above
 
Seanm said:
He wants to respect the referendum result. He wants a customs union and close regulatory alignment. It's not ambiguous.
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Not ambiguous but contradicts the notion of respecting the referendum result. People voted to leave to take back control of the things that Labour’s policy of remaining in the customs union and single market would deny them, principally their demand to stop free movement of people.
 
gavreid said:
I don't think they equate - those governments have pressures on them too, they'd all be toast if no deal happened and they'd done nothing. Ireland for example gets the bulk of its medicines from the UK, and that's just scratching the surface. It doesn't mean they have to be in on a bluff. See @wacko above
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Markets have been known to get it wrong. The point I’m making is that there is still a strong possibility that no deal will happen, and to dismiss it out of hand is dangerous.
 
Vinniemac said:
Markets have been known to get it wrong. The point I’m making is that there is still a strong possibility that no deal will happen, and to dismiss it out of hand is dangerous.
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I think you’re right- the concept of accidental Brexit has already been aired a number of times. The political instability and implacable divisions in Westminster just keep rolling and before you know it, it’s April Fools Day. Also remember, the political crisis above isn’t a justification in the eyes of the EU to extend A50. I’m afraid there’s ample historical precedent for disasters happening because of stupidity.
 
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