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Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+13)?

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Not ambiguous but contradicts the notion of respecting the referendum result. People voted to leave to take back control of the things that Labour’s policy of remaining in the customs union and single market would deny them, principally their demand to stop free movement of people.

Now you're bginning to sound like Theresa May.
 
say what you like, tony blair speaks and talks with much more clarity, gravitas and sense of analysis than dear sweet jeremy ever did.

True. You can hear the sincerity in this Blair speech.


My anger with Blair is over Iraq which has overshadowed the great amount of good Labour did in reversing the years of Tory damage.

Stephen
 
Many Tory MPs can’t stomach May’s Withdrawal Agreement because it’s not a hard enough Brexit for them (vassalage etc). The DUP back them up, so how on earth can Labour expect that lot to vote for their Vassalage plus plus plus? There’s the no small matter of a huge number of Leave voters- they want Total Brexit.
 
I disagree. Assuming he wants to be prime minister the time for constructive ambiguity is over.
Absolutely. Assuming he wants a GE, he has to get his message out there, so there has to be one. Clear and unequivocal. If not now, it may not percolate into the public consciousness in time.

On a related note, it feels like we may be witnessing the end of two party politics in the U.K. Rather than clutter up an already full thread, I may start a new one.
 
I do.

I also think that even if there was another ref (There shouldn't be) ... the longer this goes on, the more would vote for Mays deal in the absence of any other real alternatives, partly as a protest but mostly because it's reasonable, perhaps with some small amendments.

Free movement would be a key and personally I think even more would vote to stop this.

Many don't understand that being part of the customs union, as suggested by some (and not dismissed out of hand by myself) would mean Britain can not independantly negotiate trade deals with the rest of the world but many are concerned with things closer to home, rightly or wrongly.

Just this will almost certainly preclude most already mentioned ways.

Pie in the sky. There will be no second referendum.

A customs union is the minimum we should leave on IMO (preferably not leaving at all). The UK will not be able to negotiate better trade deals alone, than we have, or will get, through an EU customs union relationship. Regarding a second referendum, I would have thought it was clear that no actions, lunatic or otherwise, can be discounted in UK politics.
 
Have you seen recent opinion polling of Leave voters? They’re getting more rabid.

No but the fact is there was no mention of "customs union", "single market" etc. on the referendum ballot paper - a point often made by the People's Vote campaign. You can't have it both ways.
 
A customs union is the minimum we should leave on IMO (preferably not leaving at all). The UK will not be able to negotiate better trade deals alone, than we have, or will get, through an EU customs union relationship. Regarding a second referendum, I would have thought it was clear that no actions, lunatic or otherwise, can be discounted in UK politics.
Cameron opened the door to Farage, Johnson, Gove and Mogg and they stepped over his political corpse to create the civil war you see now. No matter what outcome, the divisions aren’t going to disappear and Britain has already disqualified itself from future global investment. Even if we we stay in, who’s going to risk building new manufacturing plants predicated on our access to the EU market? Then there’s the matter of what happens politically and socially in the UK- and it’s not good.
 
Absolutely. Assuming he wants a GE, he has to get his message out there, so there has to be one. Clear and unequivocal. If not now, it may not percolate into the public consciousness in time.

On a related note, it feels like we may be witnessing the end of two party politics in the U.K. Rather than clutter up an already full thread, I may start a new one.

For as long as the DUP supports the Government, there's no prospect of a GE or a peoples' vote or a ref2. Extending A50 extends the life of the Government unfortunately...
 
No but the fact is there was no mention of "customs union", "single market" etc. on the referendum ballot paper - a point often made by the People's Vote campaign. You can't have it both ways.
I think you understand as well as I do why such ‘trifling detail’ was left off. You were told voting to leave gave you all the economic benefits of being in the EU but you’d never have to take any of their rules again or have any of them comin in.
 
Markets have been known to get it wrong. The point I’m making is that there is still a strong possibility that no deal will happen, and to dismiss it out of hand is dangerous.

Who would have thought at the time that the shooting of an Archduke in Sarajevo would lead to millions dead within four years? Unintended consequences and all that.
 
Cameron opened the door to Farage, Johnson, Gove and Mogg and they stepped over his political corpse to create the civil war you see now. No matter what outcome, the divisions aren’t going to disappear and Britain has already disqualified itself from future global investment. Even if we we stay in, who’s going to risk building new manufacturing plants predicated on our access to the EU market? Then there’s the matter of what happens politically and socially in the UK- and it’s not good.

The most significant divisions in the country aren't about Brexit. The Conservatives took a crank issue and magnified it to the point that it now risks tearing the country apart, but it remains a Tory psychodrama - it just happens that the media are utterly hypnotised by it. It's actually a poor vehicle for all the discontent that's been shovelled into it and if it can be defused one way or the other even temporarily I think it will die with the Conservative Party. The real divisions will begin to be addressed the moment the Tories are kicked out.
 
I don't believe the 'establishment' will allow a no deal under any circumstances

I have never believed that 'the establishment' would allow Brexit at all. I believe I may well be proven right.

I read that as phantom plan B.

John Major used to have a phantom moustache. Does he still?

Brexit is blaming the EU for the UK Government's incompetence/mistakes. An example: why has non-EU migration been increasing since 2013 if the UKG has full control over it, et cetera et al...

A tired old trope, oft repeated and conveniently ignoring the much greater truth. But keep repeating it. The echo is undoubtedly comforting.

Many Tory MPs can’t stomach May’s Withdrawal Agreement because it’s not a hard enough Brexit for them (vassalage etc). The DUP back them up, so how on earth can Labour expect that lot to vote for their Vassalage plus plus plus? There’s the no small matter of a huge number of Leave voters- they want Total Brexit.

Many MPs can't stomach May's WA because it is shockingly bad, (vasselage etc...).

Cameron opened the door to Farage, Johnson, Gove and Mogg and they stepped over his political corpse to create the civil war you see now. No matter what outcome, the divisions aren’t going to disappear and Britain has already disqualified itself from future global investment. Even if we we stay in, who’s going to risk building new manufacturing plants predicated on our access to the EU market? Then there’s the matter of what happens politically and socially in the UK- and it’s not good.

We're doomed!
 
A tired old trope, oft repeated and conveniently ignoring the much greater truth. But keep repeating it.

Which is what?.. Remind me..

We're doomed!

Well yes, we always were.. everyone of us... But we are now doomed to a lesser life, poorer social integration, social division and bitterness and a massively weakened economy. All caused by Cameron's weakness in the face of a few self entitled idiots and May's incompetence in dealing with the shitstorm Cameron created.
 
Absolutely. Assuming he wants a GE, he has to get his message out there, so there has to be one. Clear and unequivocal. If not now, it may not percolate into the public consciousness in time.

On a related note, it feels like we may be witnessing the end of two party politics in the U.K. Rather than clutter up an already full thread, I may start a new one.

You need a thread for each new party—say six?

Stephen
 
I left the Labour Party over Iraq, but a lot of the good things in our society over the last 20 years came about as a direct result of Blair's government. He is easily the best PM this country has had in my lifetime and listening to him speak about Brexit on Radio 4 a month or so ago I heard more clarity of thought and common sense in an hour than I have heard from the combined spokespeople from all the parties since. We need a leader of his stature, but we have no one, not a single person who can come forward from any party and do what needs to be done. It's depressing!


There is no doubt Blair is a brilliant orator, the problem is determining whether what comes out of his mouth matches what goes on in his head, one of his advisors apparently said that he would often meet two groups with diametrically opposed views separately and each group would say afterwards that Blair was on their side.
 
Which is what?.. Remind me..

Oh, come on, don't feign ignorance. And it isn't going away - look at France, the protests have been going on for 10 weeks, they've knocked the self-satisfied Cheshire cat smirk off Macron's face, and what are they about? The 'progressive' metropolitan élite and the provincial left behinds. What do they want, the thick, horny-handed paysan provincials? Well, amongst many other things circulating around the general theme of austerity, fuel tax rises and social cuts, less EU. What is Macron's solution to the EU's current 'difficulties'?

More EU.

Well yes, we always were.. everyone of us... But we are now doomed to a lesser life, poorer social integration, social division and bitterness and a massively weakened economy. All caused by Cameron's weakness in the face of a few self entitled idiots and May's incompetence in dealing with the shitstorm Cameron created.

It sounds awful. Where are you going to move to?

Amongst the dissatisfactions expressed by the thick, uneducated provincials in this country which resulted in the vote to leave the UK are lesser lives, poor social integration, social divisions and bitterness.
 
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