advertisement


New amplifier auditions booked

I would have thought from the description that the problem is the speakers. In the Colloms’ review that Neat have on their website, he has some reservations about the treble. He seemed to cure the problem by tweaking the positioning of the speakers. I’ve never owned Neat speakers, but once upon a time briefly considered older Momentums and found I didn’t like the treble. The lab report also shows how demanding these speakers are on an amplifier (they drop down to 3 ohms). When Stereophile reviewed the Sugden A21ai some year ago, Atkinson found that the amp was very unhappy with impedances below 8 ohms. Hopefully the SE is better in that regard.

I’ve always loved the idea of Sugden. The reality is a little more nuanced. I had an A21a for a time, which had a nice warm sound, but put a slight veil over everything. I was using it with speakers that were easy to drive albeit with low sensitivity (Spendor S3/5R and Harbeth P3ESR). I never tried the amp with difficult speakers like the Neat appear to be judging from Colloms’ measurements. I also still have an A48 that was lovingly restored by Sugden, but that’s a completely different beast. Unfortunately, I never had the chance to try the A21a with the pair of AN-Ks I had for a while.

I would have thought the Naim, Exposure or Rega Aethos, as someone else suggested above, would be a good match if you want to keep the speakers. However, you really need to borrow the amp and use it in your system at home to see if it will do what you want it to do. It’s nigh on impossible to come to any meaningful conclusions about the “sound” of amps like these in a demo at a dealers, even with your own speakers.
 
Assuming the sugden is good at low volumes?

What speakers generally go well, read a review and it recommended large drivers. Encouragingly they also tested with Neat iotas explorer which has the same isobaric setup as my momentums.

the tannoys were absolutely magic with the a21se .. very very good and compelling .
 
I don't know how the A21SE Sig. is different from the regular SE, but I have thoroughly enjoyed my Sig. with many different speakers, including Audio Note E's, Kef LS50's, Klipsch RP600M's, and J.M. Reynaud Bliss Silvers. I'll be interested to see which amp. you choose.
 
I would have thought from the description that the problem is the speakers. In the Colloms’ review that Neat have on their website, he has some reservations about the treble. He seemed to cure the problem by tweaking the positioning of the speakers. I’ve never owned Neat speakers, but once upon a time briefly considered older Momentums and found I didn’t like the treble. The lab report also shows how demanding these speakers are on an amplifier (they drop down to 3 ohms). When Stereophile reviewed the Sugden A21ai some year ago, Atkinson found that the amp was very unhappy with impedances below 8 ohms. Hopefully the SE is better in that regard.

I’ve always loved the idea of Sugden. The reality is a little more nuanced. I had an A21a for a time, which had a nice warm sound, but put a slight veil over everything. I was using it with speakers that were easy to drive albeit with low sensitivity (Spendor S3/5R and Harbeth P3ESR). I never tried the amp with difficult speakers like the Neat appear to be judging from Colloms’ measurements. I also still have an A48 that was lovingly restored by Sugden, but that’s a completely different beast. Unfortunately, I never had the chance to try the A21a with the pair of AN-Ks I had for a while.

I would have thought the Naim, Exposure or Rega Aethos, as someone else suggested above, would be a good match if you want to keep the speakers. However, you really need to borrow the amp and use it in your system at home to see if it will do what you want it to do. It’s nigh on impossible to come to any meaningful conclusions about the “sound” of amps like these in a demo at a dealers, even with your own speakers.
Yeah it's an interesting one. I don't find the momentums fatiguing but I am slightly aware of the S's particularly in spoken voice. More so than I was with my motive sx3, albeit that was with a brio rather than Elex-r. The motive and momentum share the same tweeter, in retrospect I definitely feel the brio had a bit more bass and was a warmer presentation, the Elex-r however is a bit more forward, exciting and has more control at higher volumes. I think overall though I prefer the presentation of the brio.

So I think I can improve the momentums with a warmer amp. This is what has attracted me to the exposure as I have read it has excellent grip but with "near tube like" warmth. My hifi dealer suggested the sugden which I am now really interested in. I am prepared to change my speakers though if required. Cheapest option would obviously be buy the exposure and keep my speakers but might not be the best option.

My dealer does reackon the momentums will work with the sugden though and from reading the specs I think it should be fine but only one way to find out I guess.
 
I don't know how the A21SE Sig. is different from the regular SE, but I have thoroughly enjoyed my Sig. with many different speakers, including Audio Note E's, Kef LS50's, Klipsch RP600M's, and J.M. Reynaud Bliss Silvers. I'll be interested to see which amp. you choose.

I was reading about the AN-E today, look interesting, was struggling to find out how much they cost? Seems a few places sell them but oddly none seem to list the price from what I could tell.
 
AN UK prefer their dealers not to list prices.

As far as the AN-E, which one? There are multiple permutations of cabinet material, crossover wiring, drive unit materials etc and an enormous range of prices, which on first glance you may think includes a few typos (it doesn't). I think the base AN-E runs at about 5 grand these days, but as you say, it's hard to tell.

Is changing the speakers an option/plan? I don't recall you mentioning it originally.

If you are considering a change of speakers, then choose new speakers first and buy an amp to complement them, not the other way round.
 
I don't know how the A21SE Sig. is different from the regular SE, but I have thoroughly enjoyed my Sig. with many different speakers, including Audio Note E's, Kef LS50's, Klipsch RP600M's, and J.M. Reynaud Bliss Silvers. I'll be interested to see which amp. you choose.

My understanding is the Signature versions replace the earlier models, it's not an optional model with spoilers and wider tires.

I don't know what the differences are, but I do know a couple of folks who felt Sugden sacrificed something of the old a21's 'magic' when the newer model and the SE version were originally launched.

Apparently the magic was only temporarily mislaid rather than permanently lost, I'm told the Signature version of the basic amp has restored beatific smiles all round.
 
My dealer says the A21 SE is his favourite amp at anything around that budget so really curios to hear it. Looks are stunning too.

Is there any difference between class A Watts to class AB? I'm assuming only in presentation

No. Power output depends on frequency and the nominal impedence of the speakers at that frequency - the stated power will be conservative on the Sugden for sure. The Arros are nominally 4 ohms for example, which ought to be a tougher ask for a low powered amp, but the little Sugden was great.

It's arguably primarily a subjective impression (obviously there are technical differences in operation, but Google's your friend for that).

High quality Class A amps tend have a reputation for sounding 'bigger' or more powerful than the paper spec might suggest.You'll see that referred to quite regularly in reviews of the likes of Sugden, Pass Labs, Marantz etc. And it's no coincidence that Class A amps tend to have quite hefty power supplies, again often apparently over-specced for the power output.
Having thought about this a bit, I suspect the reason why Class A amps sound 'bigger' than their wattage value suggests, might be down to the 'always on' nature of the power supply. So sudden dynamic swings can easily be handled (up to clipping), which helps them sound fast and dynamic. It also explains why the power supply looks 'over-specced', as it's got to deliver all the goods, all the time.
 
Having thought about this a bit, I suspect the reason why Class A amps sound 'bigger' than their wattage value suggests, might be down to the 'always on' nature of the power supply. So sudden dynamic swings can easily be handled (up to clipping), which helps them sound fast and dynamic. It also explains why the power supply looks 'over-specced', as it's got to deliver all the goods, all the time.

Being so inefficient the p/s will be overspecced, so too the output stages I guess. The big Masterclass amps are a significant step up (and in cost)
 
Having thought about this a bit, I suspect the reason why Class A amps sound 'bigger' than their wattage value suggests, might be down to the 'always on' nature of the power supply. So sudden dynamic swings can easily be handled (up to clipping), which helps them sound fast and dynamic. It also explains why the power supply looks 'over-specced', as it's got to deliver all the goods, all the time.


erm... no... There is absolutely no difference between Watts from any type of amplifier... Watts is Watts! It's a measure of power not quality.

The topology of the Sugden makes it rather less good at driving low impedance's than many amps but it should be OK with 4R provided OP is not a headbanger!
 
AN UK prefer their dealers not to list prices.

As far as the AN-E, which one? There are multiple permutations of cabinet material, crossover wiring, drive unit materials etc and an enormous range of prices, which on first glance you may think includes a few typos (it doesn't). I think the base AN-E runs at about 5 grand these days, but as you say, it's hard to tell.

Is changing the speakers an option/plan? I don't recall you mentioning it originally.

If you are considering a change of speakers, then choose new speakers first and buy an amp to complement them, not the other way round.

Qvortrup succesfully managed to convert Snell E to work in smaller european rooms near corners.
Some of them i've heard were excellent and a fine match in a full AN setup.
Quite expensive though.

Old original Snell E were entirely different to my memory.
 
erm... no... There is absolutely no difference between Watts from any type of amplifier... Watts is Watts! It's a measure of power not quality.
I think you may have replied to something I quoted, rather than something I said, because you’re not disagreeing with anything I said. Watts is Watts, but I think perceptually, Class A Watts can sound harder and faster than AB, up to the point of clipping. That may make the amp sound beefier than the output figures suggest. And most AB amps don’t deliver >>20 Watts except on the loudest bits, anyway.
 
erm... no... There is absolutely no difference between Watts from any type of amplifier... Watts is Watts! It's a measure of power not quality.

No shit, Sherlock. Been spending too much time on ASR recently? ;-)

I think if you read my posts it's clear that I'm talking about a subjective impression rather than measured/specified output.


The Sugden is easily the best of the three amps;)

Well, you got that right! All else being equal. No trying to drive Apogee Scintillas with an a21...
 
I think you may have replied to something I quoted, rather than something I said, because you’re not disagreeing with anything I said. Watts is Watts, but I think perceptually, Class A Watts can sound harder and faster than AB, up to the point of clipping. That may make the amp sound beefier than the output figures suggest. And most AB amps don’t deliver >>20 Watts except on the loudest bits, anyway.

I'm afraid your conceptualising is as way out on this as it is on mains cables! :D

The only thing that is circumstantially working towards what you say is that with class A amps they are generally expensive, heavy and low powered. Everything is done to a quality rather than a price (within reason). Most low power class A/B amps are budget units and the low power is a big part in the keeping it cheap. With this low power cheapness goes small transformers, small smoothing caps etc etc and often they are "struggling/straining" as they get towards full power. Class A amps are intrinsically "at full power" all the time and everything about them must be engineered so that they are not in anyway straining. They actually often run a little cooler if you thrash them!
A class A/B amp given this level of power supply etc should also maintain it's composure right up till clipping point.

There's more if's, but's and caveats to that than a trump tweet BTW and I'm assuming the class A/B amp is something like a NAD 3020 or similar... ie only 20W to make it as cheap as it can be made.

The best (accidental) demo of this that I saw was an amp such as this playing really loud in a hi fi shop and the "On" light on the front panel visibly dimming in time with the music!
 
No shit, Sherlock. Been spending too much time on ASR recently? ;-)

I think if you read my posts it's clear that I'm talking about a subjective impression rather than measured/specified output.




Well, you got that right! All else being equal. No trying to drive Apogee Scintillas with an a21...

I get 99.9% right. It's my job. When you've designed and built lets say 100 amplifiers you may comment.
I have zero interest in ASR BTW and never visit it as I'm a subjectivist.
 
Class A Watts can sound harder and faster than AB, up to the point of clipping. That may make the amp sound beefier than the output figures suggest.

Well I have built a JLH 10W, a Hawk A18 and a Pass Aleph 30 and they didn't fit your description of the sound. The JLH and the A18 sounded clear and lean. The Aleph sounded like "hi-end" hifi... but not engaging. A NAP200 clone sounds harder and faster.
Never had an A21 at home but from what I've heard they probably sound someting like the A18 (i.e. wonderful in the right circumstances and with the right music, but not an all rounder).
 
Well I have built a JLH 10W, a Hawk A18 and a Pass Aleph 30 and they didn't fit your description of the sound. The JLH and the A18 sounded clear and lean. The Aleph sounded like "hi-end" hifi... but not engaging. A NAP200 clone sounds harder and faster.
Never had an A21 at home but from what I've heard they probably sound someting like the A18 (i.e. wonderful in the right circumstances and with the right music, but not an all rounder).

Indeed many seem to think there is a specific "class A sound" and this couldn't be more wrong!
Nothing "lean" about the sound of the JLH 10W I made...
 


advertisement


Back
Top