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Naim with Tube Power Amp

R

robdeszan

pfm Member
Hello all,

I sent my 250 amp for servicing and hooked up a small Yamamoto ha02 headphone amp, which happens to have speaker outputs as well, to harbeth 7es3, this from the tape output from the 52 pre.

While the sound is nowhere as big (or loud due to power limitations) as solid state naim, the tubes sound rather enticing.

Is Naim pre to tube power amp practised as such? I am guessing that rather than a blanket statement, system matching will be key, have you found any combinations that work or is this something not worth the trouble (think tube sourcing, lifespan)

Best,
Pat
 
The NAC52’s tape outputs do not go through the Naim input buffer / volume control / output gain-stage circuitry. It’s those which impart the Naim sound signature. There is a tape buffer though, but in theory, that shouldn’t change the sound too much.

Since it has a volume control built in, I’d say you’d be better connecting your source(s) direct to the valve amp, though that will depend on the connectors you’re using.

PS. If you wanted to hear it using the Naim pre-amp proper, you’d need to connect to the power-amp via the normal 4-pin DIN output on the NAC52. You’d end up with two volume controls though.
 
Thanks for your suggestion.

Well, the headphone amp being fed from the 52's tape output sounds significantly better than directly from the source so wanted to retain the "magic". I could put together a cable to feed from supercap if that is a requirement.

It is more a question of whether tube power amps are worth investigating with Naim kit. I have seen a few threads were people mentioned running tube pre amps.
 
robdeszan said:
Well, the headphone amp being fed from the 52's tape output sounds significantly better than directly from the source so wanted to retain the "magic". I could put together a cable to feed from supercap if that is a requirement.
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I’d guess that’s because the Naim tape buffer is giving some advantage in terms of impedance matching. But yes, you’d need to knock up a 4-pin DIN connector to hear the Naim as intended.

Of course, tubes generally have a very different sound signature to Naim. I have to be careful what I say here, because I’m bound to annoy someone, but remember this is just my opinion and I don’t use valve amps anyway. The Naim sound is to do with bass notes starting and stopping quickly, so you don’t end up with a “bloomy” sound. But Olive Naim will take away all those things that valve-lovers seem to crave, such as spaciousness and airiness. It’s definitely worth experimenting though.

Please report your findings, as I'd be interested to know.
 
I run a NAC82 into hypex class D power amps, and this works well for me. I've also got NAP135s, and prefer the hypex units. I would certainly not have a problem with driving valve amps from a naim pre, and think you'd get a decent sound. Of course only consider a valve power amp if you have suitable speakers which will enjoy the experience, but if you do, don't hesitate!
 
Tried to run Naim source (nd5 xs2) with the tube amp (Ampandsound Mogwai). Though amp‘s got volume control, there might be some gain mismatch because adding a pre-amplifier improved things massively.
 
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences. All very encouraging but it is a bit of a minefield looking at different options/makes, reliability, tube sourcing, contradictory opinions (true of any hifi ;/) etc. so need to audition - own system ideally - before purchase which could prove a bit challenging in the Bristol area. Unlike solid state amps, a lot of tube hardware seems (or aspires to be) rather boutique with a price tag to match!
 
Avon said:
The Naim sound is to do with bass notes starting and stopping quickly, so you don’t end up with a “bloomy” sound.
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I guess that would be a bad sign for my 42.5/140. It seems bloomy in the bass...
 
I suspect that the sounds are different, to the extent that you might not retain the best qualities of either, but I haven't tried it, so I could be wrong. I have a Naim 282, although all boxed up for selling at the moment, as I prefer my ARC valve pre with my speakers. I swap between a valve and solid state pwr amp as the mood/music takes me at the moment, but cable complications means it is tricky to experiment with Naim pre into ARC valve pwr amps. (I would need RCA to XLR in my case and I am trying to avoid buying every combination of Din, RCA and XLR in's and out's).

However, that might not be a good comparison anyway, as your 52 should be a bit more refined than the 282. (The 282 is good, but quite excitable.) I will be interested in your findings if you do try it.
 
That's it, the Yamamoto HA02 amp has been transformed by the 52 tape output, hence the idea; it really never sounded better - previously used with a direct nDac analogue RCA out and 72s tape out. It could sound different still via SuperCap output - like you say, more cables...

I think this exercice would involve a lot of (home) trial runs to see if I can obtain a sound that suits me. Although, I really cannot fault what I am hearing through 52&250, the tube presentation caught me by surprise!
 
x21 said:
I guess that would be a bad sign for my 42.5/140. It seems bloomy in the bass...
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All I can say is that the chrome bumper preamps did not contain the time-aligned buffer circuit. That meant they didn't do the bass start stop thing as well, but they did have more of a 3d sound perspective. Some like it, some hate it. Be aware that the term bloomy has an entirely subjective meaning that can only be demonstrated and not described. Even then, some people hear it, others do not. If you like the sound your system makes, then that's all that matters.
 
Rob (o.p.), that's one heck of a can amp if it'll drive Harbeths (or most normal efficiency speakers); wonder what the output is.

Received wisdom has it that the way to go is valved pre., s/s power (or valved, of course). I had it the other way round, with 552 controlling two EAR 509 100 watt mono's. It worked well, but when I replaced the 552 with EAR 912 pre., it made the 552 broken in retrospect.

Synergy? Maybe, but there was no electrical mismatch with the Naim-EAR combo; nor a sonic one either. I would change my valved mono's for suitable s/s (class A?) but no way would I change my pre. and not just because it has two superb phono stages built in.

I'm not at all sure here, but I have a vague recollection that Harbeths are not the kind of speaker associated with valved amplification. EAR powers are not the usual ' lush valve' sound; they're as near to s/s sonically as you can get from valves.. B.t.w., the 509s replaced 135s; win on expansiveness and lose on bass delineation.
 
Thanks for more insights, very interesting read.

Mike, the Yamamoto ha02 is a sub 1-w speaker output device so while the harbeths are able to produce music with it, a pair of small q acoustics I once tried with them for a desktop setup failed to show any dynamics at all and sounded tinny; hence the surprise on how it still managed to present some of the tube qualities (within it's obvious power limitations). Not a huge bass head and favour more defined, textured qualities rather than sheer rumbling.

I also tend to let some sort of music often play throughout the day and, as I am finding out more, tube amps are not really suited for that, are they?

But that "expansiveness", midrange and rolled off highs are like a siren call... beguiling, yet (practically) perilous. ;)
 
Well, I should get a chance to audition an audio note P2 series amp in a few weeks time to see how it fares in my rig. I am still enamoured by that tiny Yamamoto despite power limitations - it just flows.
 
I sold my Tube Distinctions-modified Puresound A30 power amp (it was originally an integrated), back in 2009 to a chap running a Linn Majik streamer into a Naim 82/180 combo.

We swapped out the Nap 180 for the modded Puresound, and the sound was decidedly 'off.' It lacked immediacy and 'timing.'

Luckily, I had brought my Tube Distinctions prototype grounded grid valve pre with me (I'm still using this to this day). We swapped out the NAC 82 for this.

Within seconds, I heard the words,

"That sounds ******* amazing!"

This combo outpaced and out-timed the Naim. My modded Puresound was duly sold, and I was able to buy the Tube Distinctions Copper amp.

The buyer ordered his own grounded grid pre from Tube Distinctions, and the rest is history.

I think we can conclude that mixing Naim preamps with valve power amps is not likely to be a good match.
 
Steven Toy said:
I think we can conclude that mixing Naim preamps with valve power amps is not likely to be a good match.
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That was just one example, Steven, but you may be right with many valved powers. My experience (see post above) with EAR mono's (admittedly not really 'valve-like) was different. However, valved pre. and s/s power is the right way to go. Logical if you think about it as the valve 'magic' is simply passed to the power which is more able to have more grunt etc. A generalisation, but written in hifi annals.
 
Thank you for more insights.

To dip my toes into tubes Leak Stereo 20 also came up as a potential candidate but due to sensitivity mismatch (150mV to reach full output on LS20) the gain level on the Naim active pre amplifier might be too high (up to 775mV) presenting another obstacle here > volume control! Is my reservation re this correct?
 
It’s not clear what the voltage gain of the LS20 is, other than it’s extremely high. Even an Olive Naim power amp has a voltage gain of about 27x, with the NAC52 being 12x, which IMHO is too high for sensible travel of the volume control with a 2V source such as a DAC.

PS. A couple of articles I’ve seen suggest the LS20 has a voltage gain of 120x, which would definitely cause problems with a Naim preamp. Since the individual gains multiply, then a 2V input would give 2 x 11 x 120 = 2,640V output.
 
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