Naim Supernait 3 surgery

[Tom60300]

@Tony L - get rid of this thread, it is embarrassing

Why? This is a subject about audio equipment, components and their performance. Unless you are employed by either Naim or ALPS, there is no content here that can be considered embarrassing.

Conversely, I am embarrassed for you and your barking commands at the Admin to summarily execute an order.

 

[Tom60300]

I can only repeat that I have yet to see a problem with an Alps Blue after dealing with over 500 of them. Are you sure that all these allegedly faulty amps use the Blue? Alps make many other cheaper ones and these are also commonly used in hi fi amps.

One should not expect proper channel balance from any pot (as opposed to a switched attenuator) at VERY low volumes ie below "1" on the dial. Even so the Alps Blue usually works well enough down there IME.

I suspect some sort of mass hysteria event going on here where everyone having channel imbalance due to room effects or a blown tweeter (yes quite often!) is reading too much on social media and then stoking it up!

Arkless, with all due respect, I understand you are an electronics technician and that you are very familiar with various components, designs and concepts notably for audio amplification. However, I wonder how much time you actually spend listening to music critically, paying full attention and enjoying the moment.

I do indeed wonder because when you declare that the ALPS Blue "usually works well down there" for low volume listening or when you equally declare that this phenomenon is a form of "social media mass hysteria" or even propose that this channel imbalance reality could be due to a "blown tweeter" or "room effects"...then please pardon me for being totally perplexed.

I can tell you, rather I can certify and guarantee that when in my case the volume is gently increased from zero to an audible level on a (third!) brand spanking new Naim Supernait 3 and I get 55dBs out of the left speaker (quiet, yes, but perfect for early morning) and NOTHING from the right speaker, there can only be one conclusion: massive low-level channel imbalance.

This isn't science fiction or make-believe. I do not hear diabolic voices, I don't see ghosts, I do not communicate with the deceased and I don't regularly converse with an imaginary friend. Channel imbalance on Naim amplifiers and preamplifiers using ALPS Blue potentiometers is part of a tangible, quantifiable reality.

My beef, my grief and my admittedly enormous dissatisfaction with Naim is related to their industrial production decisions that have validated using HIGH GAIN output design with ALPS potentiometers which are subject to channel imbalance. This is a literal recipe for disaster. The observable anomaly is when this doomed combination actually performs correctly. That is the subject of this thread.

Naim is being disrespectful to themselves and to their customers by perpetuating this failure and by refusing to admit and correct it. This is point I am making and none other. Have a good day.

 

[S-Man]

My beef, my grief and my admittedly enormous dissatisfaction with Naim is related to their industrial production decisions that have validated using HIGH GAIN output design with ALPS potentiometers which are subject to channel imbalance. This is a literal recipe for disaster. The observable anomaly is when this doomed combination actually performs correctly. That is the subject of this thread.

I suggested that that was the real problem (in another thread) and somebody replied that Naim had fixed the excessive gain issue on newer amps.
I'm tempted to believe you that they have not.

What speakers are you using? What efficiency?
How far can you rotate the volume pot at the highest SPLs you would want? (If it's less than 12 o'clock then there's too much gain).

 

[wylton]

I must admit, I have come across this issue, particularly with a Naim NAC22 that I was restoring. I tried quite a few different pots to no avail, so I put it to one side temporarily. In light of this thread, I'll make a mental note to myself to re-visit it!

How far can you rotate the volume pot at the highest SPLs you would want? (If it's less than 12 o'clock then there's too much gain).

That is certainly the case in both of my systems; NAC42.5 upstairs & NAC32.5 downstairs

 

[Tryant]

Yes the blue one.


Yes the "0 to 1" range is the problem. Except for Naim I don't know any other manufacturer with such a high gain structure that you have to use such a low point of the range if you want to listen at very low volume. But I get that the alps blue potentiometer isn't the problem.

That is the issue, which is diminished or exacerbated by the sensitivity of the speakers. Basically, not the best choice of an amp for low-volume listening. Crank it up, and the problem disappears.

 

[S-Man]

I must admit, I have come across this issue, particularly with a Naim NAC22 that I was restoring. I tried quite a few different pots to no avail, so I put it to one side temporarily. In light of this thread, I'll make a mental note to myself to re-visit it!



That is certainly the case in both of my systems; NAC42.5 upstairs & NAC32.5 downstairs

Old Naim had a preamp gain of X 14, way too much for modern sources. And a power amp gain of X28.

28 X 14 = 392

Stick 1VRMS (50% of CD max level) in and you get 392V RMS out!!! At least 10X more than you need.


FWIW I run with preamp gain of 1 and power amp at 23 and 86dB efficiency speakers. I've never run out of SPL, even with Stimela - The Coal Train (a quiet recording) at window rattling levels!


The solution is to bypass the gain stage of the Naim preamps. Keep the TA filter. Of course this will affect the sound, as the gain stage is where most of the Naim magic/crap* supposedly happens.

* delete as approriate

 

[Eyebroughty]

Another solution is to use Avondale's 821 pre amp boards, in older Naim pre amp's that is

 

[wylton]

Trouble is that older pre-amps like the 22/42/62 are single board apart from the phono cards.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

Arkless, with all due respect, I understand you are an electronics technician and that you are very familiar with various components, designs and concepts notably for audio amplification. However, I wonder how much time you actually spend listening to music critically, paying full attention and enjoying the moment.

I do indeed wonder because when you declare that the ALPS Blue "usually works well down there" for low volume listening or when you equally declare that this phenomenon is a form of "social media mass hysteria" or even propose that this channel imbalance reality could be due to a "blown tweeter" or "room effects"...then please pardon me for being totally perplexed.

I can tell you, rather I can certify and guarantee that when in my case the volume is gently increased from zero to an audible level on a (third!) brand spanking new Naim Supernait 3 and I get 55dBs out of the left speaker (quiet, yes, but perfect for early morning) and NOTHING from the right speaker, there can only be one conclusion: massive low-level channel imbalance.

This isn't science fiction or make-believe. I do not hear diabolic voices, I don't see ghosts, I do not communicate with the deceased and I don't regularly converse with an imaginary friend. Channel imbalance on Naim amplifiers and preamplifiers using ALPS Blue potentiometers is part of a tangible, quantifiable reality.

My beef, my grief and my admittedly enormous dissatisfaction with Naim is related to their industrial production decisions that have validated using HIGH GAIN output design with ALPS potentiometers which are subject to channel imbalance. This is a literal recipe for disaster. The observable anomaly is when this doomed combination actually performs correctly. That is the subject of this thread.

Naim is being disrespectful to themselves and to their customers by perpetuating this failure and by refusing to admit and correct it. This is point I am making and none other. Have a good day.

I don'y believe anything you say on any subject after the rubbish you've posted about every amplifier you've tried being not fit for purpose etc recently.

The Alps Blue is the best dual gang log pot out there for less than truly silly money and has the best channel balance available. I would still not expect it to be perfect down below "1" and consider such low volume settings untenable with any pot on any amplifier.

If you must buy crap like Naim though then try an attenuator on every input. 120dB should give the best results with Naim.

 

[Tom60300]

I don'y believe anything you say on any subject after the rubbish you've posted about every amplifier you've tried being not fit for purpose etc recently.

The Alps Blue is the best dual gang log pot out there for less than truly silly money and has the best channel balance available. I would still not expect it to be perfect down below "1" and consider such low volume settings untenable with any pot on any amplifier.

If you must buy crap like Naim though then try an attenuator on every input. 120dB should give the best results with Naim.

Cool story bro but likewise, I literally could not care less about your input. On the other hand, proposing an attenuator of 120 dB will probably go down as one of your finest moments! Adieu.

 

[Tom60300]

I suggested that that was the real problem (in another thread) and somebody replied that Naim had fixed the excessive gain issue on newer amps.
I'm tempted to believe you that they have not.

What speakers are you using? What efficiency?
How far can you rotate the volume pot at the highest SPLs you would want? (If it's less than 12 o'clock then there's too much gain).

FWIW, your post deserves a response. I too has also heard that Naim had a fleeting flash of lucidity, somewhere around end of 2018 and decided that they were building too much volume gain into their amplification circuit. This was supposed to be rectified in the new Classic series integrateds when they were announced. I had owned and enjoyed a SN2 since 2013 so was quite familiar with this high level of gain (Side note: the BAL and VOL pots on the 2013 SN2 were the same ALPS and NEVER were an issue. Since then, ether Naim's implementation has suffered or the manufacturer is producing non-quality).

It quickly became evident that Naim DID NO SUCH modification and the gain structure is EXACTLY AS IT WAS. This is a fact.
My speakers (same as with the SN2) are 89dB @8ohms nominal. The usable knob range in a GIK acoustic panel treated listening room of 32m2 is from about 7:30 (starting point from pot stop) to about 9:00 to 9:30 maximum depending on recordings. 10:00 is for exceptional occasions when there is nobody home or for brief signal tests or REW measurements. 11:00 is heretical. 12:00 is absolutely unthinkable because at that level the amplifier is clipping and in the the throes of death.

I repeat the same mantra since the beginning: Naim is wrong to combine out of spec and unreliable ALPS potentiometers with known channel tracking issues into high-gain designed amplifiers with little usable volume knob range. This is simply a perfect storm. AND THEY RAISED THEIR PRICES.
Brgds.

 

[wylton]

It's a shame, that as ever, the thread had to deteriorate into name calling, but I guess that's always going to happen whenever the words Linn or Naim are written!

 

[wow&flutter]

I guess we’ve reached the point of arguing faults against idiosyncrasies. The lesson here is if you’re using a Naim integrated or pre attenuate the input to get the usable volume range further round the dial.

I’ve only had two amps that I was unsure / unhappy about their performance. First was an old Pioneer SA9800 in which each of the volume indents on the control jumped the output substantially. Pioneer in their wisdom though added a -20db switch which helped get it to the required level.

The other was a Nad 3120, lovely little thing but the switch on thump was beyond annoying! Popped it in for repair and got it back saying no fault found and by design to expect that on start up!
Still I really wasn’t sure so fired the question on here.”They all do that, don’t worry about it” was the response.
Eventually I had a mate load it on eBay and put “it has the usual Nad switch on thump” in the description and it appears the buyer was happy to live with it. I on the other hand could not, each to their own I guess.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

I guess we’ve reached the point of arguing faults against idiosyncrasies. The lesson here is if you’re using a Naim integrated or pre attenuate the input to get the usable volume range further round the dial.

I’ve only had two amps that I was unsure / unhappy about their performance. First was an old Pioneer SA9800 in which each of the volume indents on the control jumped the output substantially. Pioneer in their wisdom though added a -20db switch which helped get it to the required level.

The other was a Nad 3120, lovely little thing but the switch on thump was beyond annoying! Popped it in for repair and got it back saying no fault found and by design to expect that on start up!
Still I really wasn’t sure so fired the question on here.”They all do that, don’t worry about it” was the response.
Eventually I had a mate load it on eBay and put “it has the usual Nad switch on thump” in the description and it appears the buyer was happy to live with it. I on the other hand could not, each to their own I guess.

Switch on thump is perfectly normal. It varies from nothing all the way to a loud thump and the woofer shooting out for an instant and both these scenarios and anything in between can be perfectly normal. It never ceases to amaze me how many people seem to think it is a fault!!

 

[wow&flutter]

I guess if you’re used to amps with a delay at switch on (as I had been) the thump was a bit disconcerting.

 

[clownfish]

Hello,
Does anyone have experience in changing out a defective ALPS pot in a Naim SN2 or SN3? Does anyone know if this is a 10K, 27K or 50K pot version? The soldering operation looks simple enough if I can find the compatible part. Not important to me if I lose the electric motor for the remote, just need to change the entire pot for one which is within spec.
Thanks.

Getting back to the start…

How do you know the pot is out of spec? The amp is not performing to your liking but it appears a big leap to assume a new pot will fix it. Have others reported the same issue, replaced the pot and it’s all been perfect? How do you know a new pot will be in spec? And if it is how do you know all will work the way you want?

I wish you well with this I really do. It must be incredibly frustrating. I can’t see a happy end in sight though.

My suggestion would be to look for different amplification. I know you didn’t ask that but it’s the best answer I have. A year ago I bought a Luxman 505 (swapping out my Superuniti) and haven’t looked back. In fact I bloody adore the Luxman. Will never go back to Naim gear even though I enjoyed various systems for a couple of decades.

Good luck with your next steps.

 

[PerF]

@Tony L - get rid of this thread, it is embarrassing

Don't like free speech ?

 

[PerF]

..

If you want something that works, buy Linn

Interesting, last time I heard a Linn based setup it was excellent, sounded really good.
Not that I intend to go their route again.

I had a complete Linn in the late 90's, great kit but expensive, I could enjoy it today but they refused to support and service the items, help seem to be a place in Russia, at least that's what I felt.
When they tried to convince me to buy new, - replace most of it, I jumped off, never again.

 

[S-Man]

It quickly became evident that Naim DID NO SUCH modification and the gain structure is EXACTLY AS IT WAS. This is a fact.
My speakers (same as with the SN2) are 89dB @8ohms nominal. The usable knob range in a GIK acoustic panel treated listening room of 32m2 is from about 7:30 (starting point from pot stop) to about 9:00 to 9:30 maximum depending on recordings. 10:00 is for exceptional occasions when there is nobody home or for brief signal tests or REW measurements. 11:00 is heretical. 12:00 is absolutely unthinkable because at that level the amplifier is clipping and in the the throes of death.

You seem to be restricted to about 30% of the pot travel with "normal" speakers.
I could say that's shit design, but let's just call it poor.

 

[Dowser]

Don't like free speech ?

Nope - just think the OPs contributions here are generally less than useful or productive