Naim: Is it personal?

[LPSpinner]

HI All

Here in that big rock down under we didn’t see that much of English HiFi, brands like Naim, Linn and Quad were rare. During the seventies and eighties HiFi styling was a very generic 19” wide case with lots of knobs, flashing lights and big VU meters. Loud brash and generally ugly.

When I saw my first Naim “olive series” combo I knew I had to have one, not because it sounded better but just it looked refreshing and unique. The Linn LP12 looked like a turntable should look, plain, un-obtrusive with simple lines where the design and it’s basic form communicated its function. I must say the same about QUAD gear as well. Nicely styled intuitive and very easy on the eye. I have also come to appreciate the convenience and simplicity of DIN connectors, a single plug for the both channels with no chance of mixing L and R signals makes allot of sense to me.

I still have a 72/HiCap/140 that sees regular use and every time I interact with it it just makes me smile, the same goes for my collection of QUAD gear.

I know there is a big retro community online that is extolling the virtues of classic seventies and early eighties Japanese HiFI brands like the Marantz, Yamaha, Pioneer etc and yes allot of it is good kit, and will work for a good while yet with a little TLC. However; I find it visuals jarring with little thought given to its functional layout. The same can be said for the big American brands like Macintosh, ARC Scott and Fisher. I’m not saying it wasn’t good gear, just that it was Ugly. There was a good reason that during the sixties the general trend was to mount HiFi in a console where you could close the console doors to hide the ugliness while still gaining access to the music.

I feal it’s not always bout the sound. The aesthetic, the form factor and the human interface also provide an important part of the user experience. For me that was biggest reason to seek out some of the English brand like Naim Linn and Quad.

LPSpinner.

 

[artoly]

There sometimes seems to be the strange perception amongst some that you can't enjoy Naim without being a religious zealot for it, or that you can't possibly own some of it without being entrapped in an endless upgrade cycle addiction within the brand. It's all a bit of a comedy really. Some people who enjoy audio are not that weak-willed that they can't choose based on a liking for the sound or swap it from time to time with other options (and yes LPS, that Olive look will have had an influence on the first Naim box for me too).
Begrudging a company for making something voluntarily upgradable also seems weird. I also have a server and a DAC that are upgradable (not Naim), but apparently that's somehow different....No idea why. Even the typically quoted Naim endless power supply path is entirely optional (I do now have a second hand external power supply on my pre, but again, not Naim, and no requirement for it to be Naim).
Even the cable argument seems a bit mute. Original Naim cables second-hand are cheap and sound very reasonable (at least to me), and easily available thanks to others choosing to upgrade (again, mostly to other brands, like Witchhat).
The age of owner discussions may be partly true (if a lot of us being in our 50's counts), but the items that I have sold were to much younger people than me, so they would debate that too.
But, just in case the critics may be helping to bring second hand prices down for the likes of me, keep it up and hate away. I'm happy and can enjoy the show.

PS. This ramble is general in nature and not necessarily in relation to any specific comments in this thread.

 

[Joe]

If you could just make a decent power supply in the first place that would be great thanks

Or in the second place .... ? I always felt that the solutions offered were disappointing for the money being charged. Bad business practice in a way to sell something for a lot of money that the customer upon looking into it thinks " I could make that myself "

Flatcap and Geddon.

 

[Joe]

I own the equipment I own thanks to Naim...I am also on this forum thanks to them.

I used to have, pre internet, a Naim 135 set up and was annoyed by the noisy fans ( in the amps..not the cheerleaders....they came later with the internet )

I opened them up one day to clean out the dust to see if that would improve things vis the noise and realised that everything in those amps came from the RS catalogue and that, if I knew the PCB architecture , I could build my own 135's very easily.

Fast forward ( and miss out my hifi history ...mainly Linn ) to the era of the internet and I decided to do a search .. " Naim power amps circuit design " or some such . This forum and Les's NCC amp boards came up and my DIY journey was started.

Thank you Naim.

The 135 parts count looked really low and that was what made it look like a viable option to DIY...

 

[Suffolk Tony]

There sometimes seems to be the strange perception amongst some that you can't enjoy Naim without being a religious zealot for it, or that you can't possibly own some of it without being entrapped in an endless upgrade cycle addiction within the brand. It's all a bit of a comedy really. Some people who enjoy audio are not that weak-willed that they can't choose based on a liking for the sound or swap it from time to time with other options (and yes LPS, that Olive look will have had an influence on the first Naim box for me too).
Begrudging a company for making something voluntarily upgradable also seems weird. I also have a server and a DAC that are upgradable (not Naim), but apparently that's somehow different....No idea why. Even the typically quoted Naim endless power supply path is entirely optional (I do now have a second hand external power supply on my pre, but again, not Naim, and no requirement for it to be Naim).
Even the cable argument seems a bit mute. Original Naim cables second-hand are cheap and sound very reasonable (at least to me), and easily available thanks to others choosing to upgrade (again, mostly to other brands, like Witchhat).
The age of owner discussions may be partly true (if a lot of us being in our 50's counts), but the items that I have sold were to much younger people than me, so they would debate that too.
But, just in case the critics may be helping to bring second hand prices down for the likes of me, keep it up and hate away. I'm happy and can enjoy the show.

PS. This ramble is general in nature and not necessarily in relation to any specific comments in this thread.

Spot on there Mr artoly.

 

[John Phillips]

... 1. Naim has always erroneously and dishonestly insisted that their cheapo ALPS Blue Velvet potentiometer implementations, which are systematically skewed off-balance, be it for volume of balance control on the integrateds and preamps, are "the best possible" because Steve Sells declared "they sound better". What a load of cr@p. I even had a major retailer tell me that if there is the (typical) imbalance then "you aren't using it as intended". LOL, obviously. ...

Alps is another successful brand it seems people dislike. For the wrong reasons and unjustly IMHO.

The overall gain in Naim's pre-amplifiers seems high to me. In most systems you have to throw away a lot of it via the volume control. To do that well with high gain needs an extraordinarily precise and costly professional fader. IMHO, a better system should have less gain in the first place, although there is a balance to be struck.

When used within its main range the Alps blue potentiometers I have used (I'm listening via one now) have been faultless. My systems don't have excessive gain. I think the Alps blue gets criticism when the better criticism might, indeed, be about non-optimal design rather than criticising it or the user.

I have often wondered why I see so much gain sometimes. The psychology probably gives the user a heightened impression of power from having to set the gain control so far down.

 

[boegelund]

If you could just make a decent power supply in the first place that would be great thanks

I believe they have a new one out PSX300
Not sure it match the old kit or you need to pick up some $$ special cables to make it work.

Have they fully discontinued their entire old classic (amplifier) range now - apart from streamers, Uniti's and integrated ?
Future will surely be new classic, new prices.

 

[RoA]

HI All

Here in that big rock down under we didn’t see that much of English HiFi, brands like Naim, Linn and Quad were rare. During the seventies and eighties HiFi styling was a very generic 19” wide case with lots of knobs, flashing lights and big VU meters. Loud brash and generally ugly.

When I saw my first Naim “olive series” combo I knew I had to have one, not because it sounded better but just it looked refreshing and unique. The Linn LP12 looked like a turntable should look, plain, un-obtrusive with simple lines where the design and it’s basic form communicated its function. I must say the same about QUAD gear as well. Nicely styled intuitive and very easy on the eye. I have also come to appreciate the convenience and simplicity of DIN connectors, a single plug for the both channels with no chance of mixing L and R signals makes allot of sense to me.

I still have a 72/HiCap/140 that sees regular use and every time I interact with it it just makes me smile, the same goes for my collection of QUAD gear.

I know there is a big retro community online that is extolling the virtues of classic seventies and early eighties Japanese HiFI brands like the Marantz, Yamaha, Pioneer etc and yes allot of it is good kit, and will work for a good while yet with a little TLC. However; I find it visuals jarring with little thought given to its functional layout. The same can be said for the big American brands like Macintosh, ARC Scott and Fisher. I’m not saying it wasn’t good gear, just that it was Ugly. There was a good reason that during the sixties the general trend was to mount HiFi in a console where you could close the console doors to hide the ugliness while still gaining access to the music.

I feal it’s not always bout the sound. The aesthetic, the form factor and the human interface also provide an important part of the user experience. For me that was biggest reason to seek out some of the English brand like Naim Linn and Quad.

LPSpinner.

Never got that VU meter thing (unless it's NAGRA). Reminds me of that recently released retro NAD thing, the ugliest piece of Hifi I've seen for a long time.

I mostly like unobtrusive designs and Naim certainly did that until folks had 30 or more boxes when it got ...not so unobtrusive anymore.

 

[Mr Pig]

I feel it’s not always bout the sound. The aesthetic, the form factor and the human interface also provide an important part of the user experience.

I think the Naim olive series was among the best designed hi-fi ever. The extruded case with everything on an easily removable tray was genius, strong; distinctive but simple. I loved the back-lit logo and the green was an excellent choice. I don't think that anything Naim have made since looks as classy. They went from instantly recognizable to generic and I don't know why.

 

[tuga]

Looking at a bunch of technical performance tests of amps and CD players in Stereophile I see that issues with power-supply noise are common in single-box equipment. This snippet one makes a good summary:

In many ways, the Naim Supernait offers excellent measured performance. Its D/A section is also good, and not just an afterthought. But the presence of the 60Hz AC-supply components in its output, even though they lie at a low level, did concern me, and the amplifier's ultimate noise performance is compromised to an extent by the higher-than-necessary gain.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/naim-supernait-integrated-amplifier-measurements

Interestingly neither the 2-box Naim CDS nor the CD5+Flatcap2 have PSU noise issues...

 

[stevec67]

Looking at a bunch of technical performance tests of amps and CD players in Stereophile I see that issues with power-supply noise are common in single-box equipment. This snippet one makes a good summary:

In many ways, the Naim Supernait offers excellent measured performance. Its D/A section is also good, and not just an afterthought. But the presence of the 60Hz AC-supply components in its output, even though they lie at a low level, did concern me, and the amplifier's ultimate noise performance is compromised to an extent by the higher-than-necessary gain.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/naim-supernait-integrated-amplifier-measurements

Interestingly neither the 2-box Naim CDS nor the CD5+Flatcap2 have PSU noise issues...

Good circuit design gets power supply circuitry away from everything else. Well designed equipment often has the power supply at one end in a little box of its own within the main case.

 

[sideshowbob]

Chrome bumper looks great. Never liked the rubbery knobs on the olive boxes, and everyone knows hifi is really all about knobs. Anything Naim post-shoebox looks pretty drab to me.

 

[tuga]

Good circuit design gets power supply circuitry away from everything else. Well designed equipment often has the power supply at one end in a little box of its own within the main case.

Indeed. My integrated has dual supply in an external box.

 

[artoly]

What used to happen on the old Naim forum(s) was a member would start off with a Nait, then they’d sell the Nait and upgrade to something like a 62/110 and experience a massive upgrade. Then sometime (months/a year or two) later they’d add a hicap and experience yet another massive upgrade. Then after another similar interval they might change the 62 for an 82 for another massive upgrade. After half a dozen steps and several years later they would be at the pinacle, 52/Supercap/135’s, with amazing upgrades every step of the way.

Then they’d feel a bit nostalgic for their first piece of Naim gear so they’d buy another Nait for a second system. Out of curiosity, they’d try the Nait in their main system and … hold on, this sounds 90% as good as the system I’ve spent years upgrading to. Then comes the realisation that if the Nait sounds 90% as good, all those massive upgrades over the years must actually have been quite small.

Having been up and down the ladder more than once I’m not excluding myself from any of the above!

I kind of know what you mean, having inserted my original Nait (3R) into my system recently before selling it.....so enjoyable....but honestly, I think my enjoyment in that moment was mostly nostalgia (noting also that I didn't remove lots of other upgrades before doing this comparison, so the 3R sounded better for other reasons too). If I put down my drink and listen more discerningly, the newer amp and music-listening-experience through the slightly newer, (and yet still old) upgrade, is hugely better....(acknowledging that I am still only 1 or 2 rungs further up that ladder you talk of and may never get to the top).

On another thought, regarding those percentages, I think you might actually be giving a great example of 'ever depreciating returns'. To get a 10% improvement in sound now, I would expect to have to spend 60-80% more than I have already 'invested' (random guesstimate numbers only, so please don't judge me too hard for them). This applies to all parts of my system, not just the Naim bit.

 

[stevec67]

Indeed. My integrated has dual supply in an external box.

Don't you mean internal box?

 

[stevec67]

I think the Naim olive series was among the best designed hi-fi ever. The extruded case with everything on an easily removable tray was genius, strong; distinctive but simple. I loved the back-lit logo and the green was an excellent choice. I don't think that anything Naim have made since looks as classy. They went from instantly recognizable to generic and I don't know why.

it is a very good piece of industrial design. Easy to assemble and repair.

 

[tuga]

Don't you mean internal box?

It's a 2-box integrated, custom made.

 

[Suffolk Tony]

I kind of know what you mean, having inserted my original Nait (3R) into my system recently before selling it.....so enjoyable....but honestly, I think my enjoyment in that moment was mostly nostalgia (noting also that I didn't remove lots of other upgrades before doing this comparison, so the 3R sounded better for other reasons too). If I put down my drink and listen more discerningly, the newer amp and music-listening-experience through the slightly newer, (and yet still old) upgrade, is hugely better....(acknowledging that I am still only 1 or 2 rungs further up that ladder you talk of and may never get to the top).

On another thought, regarding those percentages, I think you might actually be giving a great example of 'ever depreciating returns'. To get a 10% improvement in sound now, I would expect to have to spend 60-80% more than I have already 'invested' (random guesstimate numbers only, so please don't judge me too hard for them). This applies to all parts of my system, not just the Naim bit.

Yes, I've an ancient NAP150 I use in my surround sound system to drive a couple of small KEFs. When I went from a full-blown active Naim system I popped this into the main system, just out of curiosity. And boy, did it sound remarkably good, driving the DBLs. But then, I don't think that just applies to Naim - you can stick a far lesser bit of kit into a more revealing system & be surprised with just how good it can sound.

My son bought me a small pair of Q Acoustic speakers I'd seen in the Oxfam shop, to use on my 'puter. Stuck them on the end of my current Accuphase amp, & they really did sound excellent. For a bit.

 

[Tony L]

Chrome bumper looks great. Never liked the rubbery knobs on the olive boxes, and everyone knows hifi is really all about knobs. Anything Naim post-shoebox looks pretty drab to me.

I agree, aside from the olive Nait 2 which really looks good. Aesthetically the best for me is say a 42.5 or 62, Hicap, 250. The whole thing rather than any piece in isolation. That point when the fully extruded cases with ‘chrome bumpers’ had replaced the less attractive bolt-together ones, and the large knobs with the hole that aligned over the power LED is a pure design classic IMO. Iconic kit. If I ever went back to Naim I think that is where I’d go back to.

 

[artoly]

I own the equipment I own thanks to Naim...I am also on this forum thanks to them.

I used to have, pre internet, a Naim 135 set up and was annoyed by the noisy fans ( in the amps..not the cheerleaders....they came later with the internet )

I opened them up one day to clean out the dust to see if that would improve things vis the noise and realised that everything in those amps came from the RS catalogue and that, if I knew the PCB architecture , I could build my own 135's very easily.

Fast forward ( and miss out my hifi history ...mainly Linn ) to the era of the internet and I decided to do a search .. " Naim power amps circuit design " or some such . This forum and Les's NCC amp boards came up and my DIY journey was started.

Thank you Naim.

Thanks for posting this. My next upgrade (if/when I can ever afford it) will probably be a power amp. Options i have been reading about included the 135, but noisy fans would drive me insane. Thread drift, but do you know if this is a typical issue with 135's and if it applies to others as well? NAP300 has fan and was also on my investigation list, along with Densen, (which may not have fans - not sure), plus some other high-risk unknowns, such as opera-consonance or Audio-gd mono's. I couldn't solder well to save myself, so my solution may differ from yours.