Naim: Is it personal?

[herb]

I'd rather do my own research tbh. All my kit has been bought with no "home demo" and just carefully researched beforehand

I assume that this research is based on technical performance? If so I would disagree. Subjectively have found that simplicity of design of circuits is more important. Complex designs that measure well tend to be clouded. You can best test this out with a simple dealer demo within two minutes, if not less.

Magazine reports research gives clues as to what to expect but I guess you did not mean that?

 

[kernow]

Don't really care about measurements, I just decide what kind of kit I want and do a ton of reading, or pre COVID - bake offs were nice

 

[naimplayer]

You can't generalize. For me personally maybe a hypothetical example might help.

A superbly insightful analysis. Amazingly accurate. I wish I had the intellectual capacity to have produced this.

Which one is Naim. Answers on a postcard to, BBC, Wood Lane, London W1.

Good luck stay safe.

I have two shopkeepers living either side of me. On my left is Bob. Bob is a straightforward, honest guy who started his business from nothing. He worked very hard, took some big risks but it paid off and he's doing well. Despite his success he's still a down to earth guy who treats people fairly, only wants to sell good products and always tries to offer his customers good value and service. He'll look after you if you have a problem, even if it costs him money. He doesn't need to advertise as people like him so much they keep coming back. I like and respect Bob. I don't grudge him his nice car and big house. He's earned it fair and square.

On my right is Dave. Dave also owns a shop but he didn't start the business. The shop in question came up for sale and Dave realized that it had a great reputation and loyal customer base, very like Bob's has. But Dave has no real interest in the products or customers beyond them being a way to make himself money. He kept some of the shop's employees and does everything he can to convince the customers that it's the same old shop but the reality is that all he wants to do is find ways to extract more money from them. He tries to charge as much as he can get away with for the products and servicing while using sneaky tactics to try to convince people that his products are better than Bob's so worth the extra. I don't respect Dave. It's not that his products are no good but I don't feel he's very straight and he charges gullible people way too much money for them. I feel a bit bad for them but it's their money. I wouldn't say that I wish him ill but I don't care about his business and don't recommend it. If someone asks I send them to Bob, every time.

Does that make sense?

 

[Craig B]

A superbly insightful analysis. Amazingly accurate. I wish I had the intellectual capacity to have produced this.

Which one is Naim. Answers on a postcard to, BBC, Wood Lane, London W1.

Good luck stay safe.

Hypothetically, Bob is old Naim and Dave is new Naim. Bob's wife is a lovely person, whereas, Dave's is super hot but very high maintenance, just like his Ferrari.

 

[zekezebra]

I used to have Naim 42.5/110 and went to a dealer who demonstrated 135's and what ever the top range pre-amps were at the time and thought: is this so much better? And being honest, to myself, I thought no not really, just different.

Ok we were using my speakers, ProAc Super Tablettes, but at the time I was not ready to change them. Same front end I was using: Linn LP12, Ittok, Trokia.

Just to add that this was probably the best system I ever had before I started to change speakers, that the 42.5/110 not drive (original AE1's), and moved to a Krell integrated.

 

[Craig B]

No, that's Hermann's system.

I stand corrected (get it?). I would apologize to Hermann, but obviously he outed his own self long ago.

 

[Plink]

I think the Naim olive series was among the best designed hi-fi ever. The extruded case with everything on an easily removable tray was genius, strong; distinctive but simple. I loved the back-lit logo and the green was an excellent choice. I don't think that anything Naim have made since looks as classy. They went from instantly recognizable to generic and I don't know why.

Absolutely. The Olive era lower case Naim logo and design should be studied in art schools. Just my opinion, of course. I know nothing about industrial design

Btw, I have a classic era Hicap DR on my rack along with the 72/Hicap/135 system. With days and days of looking at those logos next to each other, it’s eminently clear that the Olive is much more pleasing to look at.

 

[tiggers]

Absolutely. The Olive era lower case Naim logo and design should be studied in art schools. Just my opinion, of course. I know nothing about industrial design.

I do a little (I studied it at night school many moons ago) and sorry, but I don't think you're right. There's nothing wrong with it whatsoever, but it's very 'safe'. Good industrial designs are both practical and innovative. The design should communicate its reason to be with the functionality of the product, and the innovation should be the attention grabber as well as adding great value to the product. Olive Naim is absolutely nailing the practical side of this, but doesn't score highly on the innovative side IMO. In hi-fi great industrial design is rare. The Michell Gyrodec is one exception, the Quad ESL57s another. IMO anyway

 

[davidsrsb]

Agreed that the Isobarik bass impedance is an evil test on amplifiers.

 

[HifiDan]

To be honest, I really don’t get some of the negativity towards Naim or any other brand written on threads here. Here’s the thing: I flick through the forum and if I’m honest, I only click on what I’m interested in. My mind boggles why some feel the need to even click on a thread which the subject, regards a brand or something they either dislike or have any interest in let alone, post a reply/comment. I own Naim equipment as I like the way it sounds but I also have Rega, Michell, Russ Andrews, Townshend Audio gear too. Everyone is different, everyone likes different things. Some people buy a Ford, others buy a Vauxhall etc, some buy Naim, some buy Linn. It’s a personal preference at the end of the day and it’s entirely up to the individual on how they spend their hard earned cash.

 

[Plink]

I do a little (I studied it at night school many moons ago) and sorry, but I don't think you're right. There's nothing wrong with it whatsoever, but it's very 'safe'. Good industrial designs are both practical and innovative. The design should communicate its reason to be with the functionality of the product, and the innovation should be the attention grabber as well as adding great value to the product. Olive Naim is absolutely nailing the practical side of this, but doesn't score highly on the innovative side IMO. In hi-fi great industrial design is rare. The Michell Gyrodec is one exception, the Quad ESL57s another. IMO anyway

I agree. I well aware that I was exaggerating. It’s just looks a whole lot more unique and interesting to me than a lot of other equipment. I have Quad ESL but don’t rate them highly from an aesthetic standpoint.

 

[LPSpinner]

Hi All

For me, the “Olive series” ticks allot of boxes for good product design. I would also argue that a “Safe” design is indeed a good thing. Most people want something that is comfortable, familiar and easily recognisable. Alternatively, while the Gyrodec is an iconic design I could not live with it in a domestic situation.

I sometimes ask myself what would Dieter Do? If you examine some of his iconic designs, you soon see product that is understated in its appearance yet intuitive in its operation while being easy to understand. One of Dieter Rams’ 10 principals of good design is “Good design is unobtrusive”; the Olive series easily ticks this box.

I love the look and feel of my olive 72/HiCap/140 combo. I also have a 250 sitting in my collection of classic equipment. I use my “shoe box combo” in a small room so the extra power available with the 250 is wasted. I do remember looking out for a pair of 135 at one stage (most of my classic gear is acquired second hand), but to be honest, two boxes for a stereo pair just seemed a bit of a faff. The real reason I own an olive 250 is that I could not by a HiCap on its own in the Australian second-hand market. It seems that in Australia, the HiCap was nearly always sold as part of a bundle when upgrading to a 250; something you could not avoid as the 250 & 135 were the only power amps unable to power a preamp where all the smaller power amps were. The Naim dealer on the Australian east coast (We only had one back then) didn’t seem to push the HiCap upgrade path all that aggressively, only supplying users a HiCap when upgrading to a 250 or a pair of 135’s.

PS Don't take the Naim zealots (from either side of the fence) to seriously, I will openly admit I purchased my kit for what it represents rather than how it sounds. I like how it looks and feels. It's a snapshot in HiFi History, it's not going to change world events or solve global issues, it just brings a smile to my face and makes my day a little better when I use it.

LPSpinner.

 

[Craig B]

I have a classic era Hicap DR on my rack along with the 72/Hicap/135 system.

That would drive me crazy (not a long drive, mind).

 

[Joe]

Hi All



I sometimes ask myself what would Dieter Do?

.

If Dieter had designed it it would have been called the Naim White Series for a start.

 

[foxwelljsly]

I asked ChatGPT “Why do so many people have an intense dislike of naim audio” and got the following answer:

It is difficult to determine the exact reasons why some people may have an intense dislike of Naim Audio, as opinions about audio equipment can be influenced by a wide range of factors, including personal experiences, preferences, and biases. However, here are a few possible reasons why some people may have an intense dislike of Naim Audio:

1. Sound signature: Naim Audio equipment is known for having a distinctive sound signature, which some people may find too bright or forward for their tastes. This can be attributed to the company's design philosophy, which prioritizes speed and rhythm over tonal accuracy.
2. Price: Naim Audio equipment is often considered to be high-end and expensive, which can be a turn-off for some people who may prefer more affordable audio equipment.
3. Aesthetics: Naim Audio equipment has a unique design aesthetic that is not to everyone's taste. Some people may prefer more traditional or minimalistic designs, while others may find the company's design language too aggressive or industrial.
4. Availability: Naim Audio equipment is not as widely available as some other audio brands, which can make it difficult for some people to audition or purchase the equipment.

It's important to keep in mind that audio equipment preferences are subjective, and what one person likes or dislikes may not necessarily apply to everyone. It's always recommended to audition equipment before making a purchase and to consider your personal preferences, needs, and budget when selecting audio equipment.

So, there you have it.

 

[kernow]

You know that's just text pulled in from the internet that's originally been written by humans anyway, right

 

[Mr Pig]

1. Sound signature: Naim Audio equipment is known for having a distinctive sound signature, which some people may find too bright or forward for their tastes. This can be attributed to the company's design philosophy, which prioritizes speed and rhythm over tonal accuracy.
2. Price: Naim Audio equipment is often considered to be high-end and expensive, which can be a turn-off for some people who may prefer more affordable audio equipment.
3. Aesthetics: Naim Audio equipment has a unique design aesthetic that is not to everyone's taste. Some people may prefer more traditional or minimalistic designs, while others may find the company's design language too aggressive or industrial.
4. Availability: Naim Audio equipment is not as widely available as some other audio brands, which can make it difficult for some people to audition or purchase the equipment.

I don't know that any of that is accurate. The Naim 'sound' has changed over the years and, while it might not be to your taste, I doubt anyone resents the brand because of it. Lots of things are expensive, it's more a question of whether of not it's worth it. I don't think Naim does have a unique aesthetic, not any more and why would someone dislike a brand because it wasn't widely available? I'm not seeing any motivation for 'intense dislike' here.

 

[gustav_errata]

I don't know that any of that is accurate. The Naim 'sound' has changed over the years and, while it might not be to your taste, I doubt anyone resents the brand because of it. Lots of things are expensive, it's more a question of whether of not it's worth it. I don't think Naim does have a unique aesthetic, not any more and why would someone dislike a brand because it wasn't widely available? I'm not seeing any motivation for 'intense dislike' here.

It's a probabilistic model. While it built a semantic context around Naim, it also necessarily had to hedge that within an "audio manufacturer" context. From there it (more or less) put together a probable sequence of words (with amazing attention network magic maintaining correct syntax). I think it's safe to assume that the training data did not include very many discussions of this exact topic so word distributions from the wider "audio manufacturer" context bled into the specific "Naim Audio" context, so to speak. This is why ChatGPT is amazing for producing plausible sounding summaries but does not withstand basic scrutinization for any topic that is not extremely simple or very, very widely discussed/documented (don't get me started on the danger it poses to horrifically misrepresenting scientific knowledge).

 

[stevec67]

I don't know that any of that is accurate. The Naim 'sound' has changed over the years and, while it might not be to your taste, I doubt anyone resents the brand because of it. Lots of things are expensive, it's more a question of whether of not it's worth it. I don't think Naim does have a unique aesthetic, not any more and why would someone dislike a brand because it wasn't widely available? I'm not seeing any motivation for 'intense dislike' here.

It's every bit as accurate as anyone else's opinion on here.
My opinion - 1 there certainly is a Naim sound. Is it always the same? No. Is it always audible? Yes.
2 - yes.
3 - yes and see 1
4 yes.

 

[stevec67]

Hi All

For me, the “Olive series” ticks allot of boxes for good product design. I would also argue that a “Safe” design is indeed a good thing. Most people want something that is comfortable, familiar and easily recognisable. Alternatively, while the Gyrodec is an iconic design I could not live with it in a domestic situation.

I sometimes ask myself what would Dieter Do? If you examine some of his iconic designs, you soon see product that is understated in its appearance yet intuitive in its operation while being easy to understand. One of Dieter Rams’ 10 principals of good design is “Good design is unobtrusive”; the Olive series easily ticks this box.

I love the look and feel of my olive 72/HiCap/140 combo. I also have a 250 sitting in my collection of classic equipment. I use my “shoe box combo” in a small room so the extra power available with the 250 is wasted. I do remember looking out for a pair of 135 at one stage (most of my classic gear is acquired second hand), but to be honest, two boxes for a stereo pair just seemed a bit of a faff. The real reason I own an olive 250 is that I could not by a HiCap on its own in the Australian second-hand market. It seems that in Australia, the HiCap was nearly always sold as part of a bundle when upgrading to a 250; something you could not avoid as the 250 & 135 were the only power amps unable to power a preamp where all the smaller power amps were. The Naim dealer on the Australian east coast (We only had one back then) didn’t seem to push the HiCap upgrade path all that aggressively, only supplying users a HiCap when upgrading to a 250 or a pair of 135’s.

PS Don't take the Naim zealots (from either side of the fence) to seriously, I will openly admit I purchased my kit for what it represents rather than how it sounds. I like how it looks and feels. It's a snapshot in HiFi History, it's not going to change world events or solve global issues, it just brings a smile to my face and makes my day a little better when I use it.

LPSpinner.

"Safe" design is a matter of choice. It's like any fashion. You may choose it or not. Some people like conservative designs, some more novel designs. There's no right of wrong. That's why some people shop at Hugo Boss and some Greenwoods. You'll never see Greenwoods selling a big, aggressive chalkstripe suit just as you'll never see Boss selling Lovat green slacks and a coordinating beige check shirt. As to hifi, I love the Gyrodec, one of my few hifi regrets is never having owned one. Conversely I can't get too excited about olive Naim. It's OK, and it's a coherent design, but it doesn't light my fire. What don't I like from the realm of classic designs? Rolex watches. Horrible ostentatious "look at me" vanity pieces. I wouldn't wear one for a bet. Just like the Naim sound, they don't all look the same and some of the more conservative designs (Explorer etc) are better, but they all share elements of the same design language and I can't abide the likes of the Sub and Air King. Yet to many, indeed most, they are the holy grail. Well, each to his own.