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MDAC first listen (part IV)

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The topic of D3E suppression come up a few time. Yesterday thought I give it some critical listening. Just to see if I can hear a difference and which setting is best in my system.
To my surprise, the dynamic that I keep looking for, especially at low level listening during the night, 'suppress' by D3E all the while. Change to unmodify, drums beat harder, music sound dynamic as it should. Yet the filter still retain their sound characteristic.
Today I did another round of listening with headphone just to confirm my finding is real. Those who wish for more dynamic may want to give it a try but ur mileage may varies.
 
mavwong said:
The topic of D3E suppression come up a few time. Yesterday thought I give it some critical listening. Just to see if I can hear a difference and which setting is best in my system.
To my surprise, the dynamic that I keep looking for, especially at low level listening during the night, 'suppress' by D3E all the while. Change to unmodify, drums beat harder, music sound dynamic as it should. Yet the filter still retain their sound characteristic.
Today I did another round of listening with headphone just to confirm my finding is real. Those who wish for more dynamic may want to give it a try but ur mileage may varies.
Click to expand...

Interesting.

I have both LSB and D3E switched on but will try switching off D3E for a while to see if I can hear any difference/improvement.

Do you still have LSB switched on and what filter(s) are you using?
 
I am using iPad as source thus not enabling lsb. And I switch between optimum spectrum and transient/XD but find I always like to go to spectrum.
 
mavwong said:
I am using iPad as source thus not enabling lsb. And I switch between optimum spectrum and transient/XD but find I always like to go to spectrum.
Click to expand...

That didn't last long!

I've gone back to having D3E on (with LSB on) as the bass weight noticeably reduced with D3E off as I listened to the Dave Brubeck Quartet via Grooveshark.

You're using different filters to me, I'm using OT DD, so that may at least partly account for the difference.

No harm in trying different settings.

Be interested to hear how other people get on with D3E set to off.
 
PhilCTTE said:
Well I'm pretty much sold on the digital format now. My comparison between the MDAC and Tag DVD32R was from memory , glad to see the MDAC performance matches it. Depending on how long you have used the MDAC, 100 hours ish should do it, the performance does creep on you and smaller details in recordings you may not have noticed before suddenly jump out.

Hope your DVD player keeps going for a little longer.

Try and use the MDAC as a pre and see what you think . I've yet to do this as I bi-amp thru my AV pre and eagerly await the MPAX arrival to try out the bypass .
Click to expand...

The M-DAC was the dealer's demo unit so I don't know how many hours it had on it. I kept it on for the 4 days so by the end I guess it must have been pretty much there in terms of "burn in"

I would have no hesitation in using a M-DAC had I not got the TAG gear but I couldn't use the M-DAC in pre mode as I need the AV32 DP for AV duties and routing the front L & R through the M-PAX is possible but a bit fiddly.

Come to think of it I'm not sure how many analogue inputs the M-PAX has. I would need at least three using it this way. AV Processor, Turntable and SACD. Also I'm not clear as to how the M-PAX routes the analogue signal into the M-DAC. Spare pins in the power input socket? I'm not sure I can face trawling through all the posts so I'd be happy if someone could explain!

So as long as my DVD transport works (I'm currently using the DVDFLR version though I do also have the top loader) it makes sense to continue with it for now. I would however be very interested to see how the M-DAC + M-PAX compares with my current equipment though getting a demo M-PAX doesn't look very likely if they are to be sold direct.

I think that you can be confident that you have reached your stated goal of getting back to the sound quality you had with your TAG gear and with change to spare. Quite a lot of change in fact!
 
mavwong said:
The topic of D3E suppression come up a few time. Yesterday thought I give it some critical listening. Just to see if I can hear a difference and which setting is best in my system.
To my surprise, the dynamic that I keep looking for, especially at low level listening during the night, 'suppress' by D3E all the while. Change to unmodify, drums beat harder, music sound dynamic as it should. Yet the filter still retain their sound characteristic.
Today I did another round of listening with headphone just to confirm my finding is real. Those who wish for more dynamic may want to give it a try but ur mileage may varies.
Click to expand...

I have found the same thing - I also tend to default to the Optimal Spectrum after first preferring Optimal Transient XD/DD. Optimal Spectrum just sounds like I'm getting everything out of a recording. The Transient types sound like aspects of the performance are being high-lighted. Enjoyable, but not as accurate - to my ears - as Optimal Spectrum.

I found turning D3E off resulted in a slightly more 'focussed' sound. Bass is a better with it off as well I found; more 'swing'/deeper. All VERY slight improvements, but they all add up :)

I'm sticking with D3E 'unmodified' (off) and Optimal Spectrum from now on. Sounds great!

- John
 
IIRC, John (WestLake) suggested Minimum Phase as the "inbetween" of Optimal Spectrum and Optimal Transient filters. How do you find Minimum Phase?

quad2fan said:
I have found the same thing - I also tend to default to the Optimal Spectrum after first preferring Optimal Transient XD/DD. Optimal Spectrum just sounds like I'm getting everything out of a recording. The Transient types sound like aspects of the performance are being high-lighted. Enjoyable, but not as accurate - to my ears - as Optimal Spectrum.
Click to expand...
 
I like Minimum Phase a lot. Probably my most used filter for audio. The way I hear the filters, Optimum Spectrum + D3E Unmodified sounds very much like the Benchmark DAC1, nearly indistiguishable to my ears. Nice and crisp. Optimum XD + D3E Full is very smooth, with a "concert hall" time domain midrange. Could simply be the second-order distortions at play. Versus XD + D3E Full, DD + D3E Full is even smoother with a slightly recessed midrange. Sounds flat, my default filter for watching videos. So many options to alter distortion characteristics with filters in combination with D3E Full/Partial/Unmodified...A fun device to listen to indeed.
 
travelfotografe said:
IIRC, John (WestLake) suggested Minimum Phase as the "inbetween" of Optimal Spectrum and Optimal Transient filters. How do you find Minimum Phase?
Click to expand...

To be honest I couldn't tell much audible difference between the two. Perhaps slightly more 'crisp' sounding overall, & a more powerful bass & overall presentation than Optimal Spectrum, but still that gut feeling that Optimal Spectrum is giving you the whole picture and is more accurate. My speakers are only Mission M72s however, so perhaps they're just not resolving enough however to do justice to the different settings... Have done lots of listening through my Audio Technica ATH-AD700 headphones too and they reflect my findings above.

I find the Optimal Transient settings a little 'fuzzy' sounding compared to the above now. And I prefer D3E off (unmodified) for all filter positions.

Being 100% honest if someone randomly selected filters I seriously doubt I could reliably tell which was being played. They're so subtle & creep up on you gradually.

- John
 
adamlau said:
I like Minimum Phase a lot. Probably my most used filter for audio. The way I hear the filters, Optimum Spectrum + D3E Unmodified sounds very much like the Benchmark DAC1, nearly indistiguishable to my ears. Nice and crisp. Optimum XD + D3E Full is very smooth, with a "concert hall" time domain midrange. Could simply be the second-order distortions at play. Versus XD + D3E Full, DD + D3E Full is even smoother with a slightly recessed midrange. Sounds flat, my default filter for watching videos. So many options to alter distortion characteristics with filters in combination with D3E Full/Partial/Unmodified...A fun device to listen to indeed.
Click to expand...

Completely agree with your findings. I guess this means I'd like the Benchmark DAC1 then :)

Wonder how much of a difference MPAX will make? Looking forward to finding out - the saving starts now!
 
MartinFXDX said:
The M-DAC was the dealer's demo unit so I don't know how many hours it had on it. I kept it on for the 4 days so by the end I guess it must have been pretty much there in terms of "burn in"

I would have no hesitation in using a M-DAC had I not got the TAG gear but I couldn't use the M-DAC in pre mode as I need the AV32 DP for AV duties and routing the front L & R through the M-PAX is possible but a bit fiddly.

Come to think of it I'm not sure how many analogue inputs the M-PAX has. I would need at least three using it this way. AV Processor, Turntable and SACD. Also I'm not clear as to how the M-PAX routes the analogue signal into the M-DAC. Spare pins in the power input socket? I'm not sure I can face trawling through all the posts so I'd be happy if someone could explain!

So as long as my DVD transport works (I'm currently using the DVDFLR version though I do also have the top loader) it makes sense to continue with it for now. I would however be very interested to see how the M-DAC + M-PAX compares with my current equipment though getting a demo M-PAX doesn't look very likely if they are to be sold direct.

I think that you can be confident that you have reached your stated goal of getting back to the sound quality you had with your TAG gear and with change to spare. Quite a lot of change in fact!
Click to expand...


Do you have the bypass version of the TAG AV. I have the MDAC into AV pre via 7.1 bypass analogue in's which is supposedly more direct than a cd input. I also have something called pure direct (Marantz) which switches off all other circuits to avoid cross contamination. This I find very good, and I am able to pick up slight differences between various sources and filters with ease. Maybe the Tag is holding back the quality.

I'm sure that I'm suffering more from poor source material rather than hardware equipment currently. This is also changing my listening material and I'm being more adventurous.

The Async USB interface is fantastic , digital streaming really does open doors in regards to music listening in every respect. The convenience of your entire music library and availabilty via Spotify. Having the computer as a tool allows you to listen to music and search for new artists and genres constantly. Music listening now is much more interactive because of this.

The MPAX has an analogue input I believe to support your turntable.

John initially stated that he would not release the M-PAX if there was no improvement in sound and that he's 90 +% sure that there will be, To be honest the quality I now have I'm very happy with , but as always until you hear better you don't know what you are missing out on. Now my system has opened up to this level of quality , its set me on a mission to tweak all areas to ensure that I'm getting the best value out of my components.. :D
 
JohnW said:
We are trying to squeeze working on the software in between "Projects" that pay...

Dom's been back working on it these past couple of day's so work is progressing,

John
Click to expand...

So Audiolab don't pay you for the official (non-Lakewest) firmware update/bug fixes then?
 
PhilCTTE said:
Do you have the bypass version of the TAG AV. I have the MDAC into AV pre via 7.1 bypass analogue in's which is supposedly more direct than a cd input. I also have something called pure direct (Marantz) which switches off all other circuits to avoid cross contamination. This I find very good, and I am able to pick up slight differences between various sources and filters with ease. Maybe the Tag is holding back the quality.

I'm sure that I'm suffering more from poor source material rather than hardware equipment currently. This is also changing my listening material and I'm being more adventurous.

The Async USB interface is fantastic , digital streaming really does open doors in regards to music listening in every respect. The convenience of your entire music library and availabilty via Spotify. Having the computer as a tool allows you to listen to music and search for new artists and genres constantly. Music listening now is much more interactive because of this.

The MPAX has an analogue input I believe to support your turntable.

John initially stated that he would not release the M-PAX if there was no improvement in sound and that he's 90 +% sure that there will be, To be honest the quality I now have I'm very happy with , but as always until you hear better you don't know what you are missing out on. Now my system has opened up to this level of quality , its set me on a mission to tweak all areas to ensure that I'm getting the best value out of my components.. :D
Click to expand...


Yes the Dual Processor AV32 has the by pass and I used this when auditioning the M-DAC to avoid the AV32 digitising the analogue input and then re converting it back to analogue. Essentially the analogue signal just goes through the analogue volume control and out. The implementation of this type of circuit was always done to a high standard by TAG so I doubt very much if the AV32 is holding back the quality more than any (active) pre-amplifer. It may be that driving the power amps direct from the M-Dac may improve quality but the system has AV duties as well as stereo.

I'm sure you are right that John will only release the M-PAX if it improves the sound but before I spend £800 to £900 I will want to hear the difference. So we'll see I guess.

I'm not at all unhappy with my current system but I was interested to see how the M-DAC compares. How much things have moved on. When I bought the TAG kit you certainly couldn't get a DAC of this quality for £600, but now you can.

I suspect that the real test will be the performance of John's transport + DAC + PS. At that point I may have to seperate my AV and stereo components. For now I read with interest :)
 
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