MDAC first listen (part IV)

[JohnW]

Hi John ,

I've been pondering over your proposal in regards to

“192kHz Async Clock Lock USB "Card" that can be fitted with the chassis - we might also be able to Clock-Lock the Motherboard to the audio clock to reduce Non-synchronous RF radiation from the PC”

What are the advantages of using Async USB rather than a quality sound card with an optical spdif interface with word clock I/O ?

Non if both Data and Clock are both optically coupled

But I'm not aware of any soundcards that can accept a multiable of FS clock input. I believe some Pro soundcards ca accept an FS input – but this is Coaxualy based – not glavanically isolated.

You would also have the issue of manually having to set the FS clock-lock rate on the MDAC (the MDAC would not know what sampling rate the PC is set to).

According to yourself and Dominik a clock locked optical spdif is the best interface solution. But how much is relied upon the quality of the PC’s sound card ?

So long as the PC sound card has bit accurate output (Clock-locked and glavanically isolated) then there are no “First Order Effects” that can effect the sound quality – the question that remains unknown are there any second order effects (such as does the Jitter on the SPDIF input that even though is not used for clock recovery effect the conversion process due to PSU / RF modulation issues within the DAC) etc

I understand that the main advantage is that the optical connection is galvanically isolated , what are the other pros and cons in either interface choice?

My only concern with the cheaper Toslink plastic fibre is well we have issues with 192kHz support - 192kHz is pushing the limits of the optical Transmit / Receive modules used.

Is it simpler to use USB rather than trawling the internet for a quality sound cards, as there are USB ports a plenty on all PC’s ? USB is a bi-directional protocol allowing the DAC to be the master clock , so can I assume the quality of the source clock is irrelevant somewhat?

Yes, that’s the fundamental advantage of Async USB – the Audio Clock resides next to the DAC.

But the issue then becomes the RF and Mains related hum injected into the Audio system from the PC environment due to lack of Galvanic AND RF isolation. [/QUOTE]

Do we only need to concern ourselves with galvanically isolating USB interfaces or should we be looking at USB sound cards for a better implementation , which I’m sceptical ? Of course your solution would offer this isolation.

The USB galvanic isolators isolate the Low Frequency Ground domains – but at higher frequency my measurements show little RF attenuation – in fact they can make the issue worst as they include an extra “RF” clock source used to provide an “Isolated” power source for the secondary side of the isolator.

The reason for the above questions is to understand the USB to 192Khz optical conversion, would it be better to build the transporter with a soundcard with optical spdif clock I/O for syncing to the motherboard ?

The USB interface would become a “Virtual” sound card – simply to install within any PC (internal or external) – and would have no downside with the proper clock locking to the MDAC via optical links.

As a further note it's interesting that the Brytson BDP-1 streamer contains a PCEngines Alix1d motherboard - http://www.alix-board.de/produkte/alix1d.html and an ESI Juli@ soundcard with modified AES/EBU and BNC digital outputs, plus modified drivers and transformer replaced. At a cost of £1300 ish !

*** edit BTW I'm so impressed with the sound via USB that I'm arranging a "bake off" with Mark Welsh and some high end DAC's I'm also on the hunt for a Bryston BDP owner to compare notes with. Hope also to source a Linn Akurate .

Our Async USB card optically isolated MDAC “should” make a perfect “Link” between the PC / Audio world – I’ll be interested in feedback once you have had a chance to play and it will be cheap

John

 

[JohnW]

Sorry one more thing, will it see a power supply upgrade as its been a while and I really havent kept myself informed on your planned upgrades?

How will these units compare to the proposed upgraded MDacs?

The PSU will be upgraded as its a whole new design!

The MDAC currently leap-frogs the CD/CDQ in features and SQ, the plan with CD/CDQ upgrade is to correct this, and leapfrog the MDAC see a never ending cycle here?

That's why I'm telling CD/CDQ owners just to hold-on as the upgrades will be cheaper then buying a new MDAC

 

[arthur]

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

MI55ION

Our pending "upgrade" for 8200CD / CDQ owners is really a COMPLETE new product accept some chassis parts / packaging etc.

There are some advantages to upgrading a unit, rather then a completely new unit.

1. Import duty is much lower for "CD Parts" then for a completed product.

2. Metal work is an issue for us!

3. Shipping is cheaper from China

4. "Rebuilding" in Europe creates jobs in Europe - with European Quality Control.

5. I guess better for the environment (not trying to pull the "Hotel" environmentally friendly save washing your towels claim here).

6. Cheaper for the owner then buying a new unit

8200CD upgrade:

1. Front panel changed to incorporating a slot loader, larger OLED display, proper Volume control knob and a headphone jack!

2. CD Mechanism replaced with a HQ metal chasse slot loader with memory buffer to improve disk readability

3. USB 384KHz / 32 Bit support

4. Dual Mono DAC’s with onboard FPGA digital filtering etc

5. CROSS output stage

6. Bit perfect test, Source Jitter analyser, D3E, level meters, user upgrade etc.

8200CDQ as 8200CD but:

HQ Dual Mono reference grade ADC’s with 384kHz 32 Bit data path and DSD / DXD support via USB.

These will be based upon our new digital / analogue platform and the units will need to be sent to the Czech Rep. for rebuild.

John

Sounds awesome John. Hope I'm still down as the first experiment.

 

[PhilCTTE]

Wow big thanks on the replies , unfortunately my limited skill set in regards to digital audio means I've been trawling the internet on half truths. Thanks for clarifiying a few facts.

How is the search on the motherboard going ?

Whats your view on the more is less approach on these boards ?

 

[aybracers]

Hi John,

I have an early 8200CD (s/n 648) that has a couple of problems with the CD transport and track length for long tracks. Iwas thinking of sending it to Audiolab UK for repair before the warranty runs out but now you have listed this upgrade I would like to send it to you in Czech for the full monty. Will this make the 8200CD equal to a M-DAC? how soon will you be able to accept CD's to mobify please?

 

[PhilCTTE]

Not sure if this is protocol , but if anyone is W midlands based , I've just been contacted in regards to a new MDAC for £550. Anyone interested please PM.

 

[JohnW]

So does this mean the once suggested trade-in offer for existing owners is now cancelled?

I must admit all these additions sound very promising, any idea on cost and roughly time when we could ship em out to the Czech Rep?

Sorry for any misunderstanding, we never intended a trade-in offer, rather an update service - we rebuild your existing CD / CDQ.

You basically get a new unit apart from a few chassis items, RC handset and packaging - covered by a 3 year warrentee.

No idea on costs yet but the full CD rebuild is targeted under GBP350 - CDQ around GBP450.

John

 

[JohnW]

Hi John,

I have an early 8200CD (s/n 648) that has a couple of problems with the CD transport and track length for long tracks. Iwas thinking of sending it to Audiolab UK for repair before the warranty runs out but now you have listed this upgrade I would like to send it to you in Czech for the full monty. Will this make the 8200CD equal to a M-DAC? how soon will you be able to accept CD's to mobify please?

aybracers,

On early CD / CDQ's there was a software bug (from an external software vendor) with long tracks (over 14 minutes or so) - the time display does not update correctly.

With the updates will surpass the MDAC SQ (well that's the intention anyway).

We will work on the CD/CDQ after the M-PAX and M-AMP

John

 

[Sebbyp]

Should of bought a CDQ! Will you guys upgrade the M-DAC or would I be better of selling it and picking up a CDQ?

By the way John - the work you guys are doing on the computer transport sounds excellent!

Seb

 

[dlcastles]

Hi, Anyone know a plughw or hw setting that works for Vortexbox Player software and a CDQ?
I can get my Vortexbox-converted PC to output to the CDQ when using the Squeezeslave software but not the VortexBox Player software which allows 24/96...
Thanks, Duncan

 

[MartinFXDX]

I've owned both the AV32R DP 192 dac and the DVD32R a few years back. The DVD player sync linked to the AV32R was very special indeed and I have been trying to attain that reference ever since. Unfortunately the DVD player became faulty and I was unable to get it repaired.

I dipped my toe in streaming with a Sonos ZP80 and to be honest could not tell a difference in DAC quality for music between any of the 3 processors I've owned since (Rotel 1570 and Marantz AV7005). The Tag was smooth, the Rotel less refined , but lively and the Marantz a more refined, lively and engaging sound. I was still left wanting in regards to music, so experimented with a borrowed DPA little bit DAC (twenty years or so old). This made a big difference which for me really highlighted the problem that midpriced processors don't really cut it.
So my dilema was do I invest 5K on an Anthem or ADA Suite 7.1HD or keep trying out DACs. The answer for me was that I was happy with the AV side of things and thought the features on some of these processor would have been wasted. Oh and one minor fact I couldn't afford them

So in answer to your question yes on boths counts, the Marantz Av7005 (in my case) is better in all areas in regards to AV, but loses the smoothness of the TAG sound for music. The MDAC offers a perfect solution as it raises the bar and certainly in regards to Async USB it seems you can throw any old laptop in the mix, stick a usb isolator in between and it manages to reach the sound quality reference level I was after. I've now sold the Sonos and also a recently acquired Squeezebox Touch. Although I'd be interested to see if sync linked source would match the Async USB.

I've currently connected the MDAC to 7.1 analogue inputs , and have put my name down on the MPAX to hopefully improve the SQ even more in using the MDAC as a pre and bypass the AV for music altogether.

TMReq didnt really work for me as my room did not present to many problems, TMReq sounded a little flat.

Would be interested if you can find an existing owner of both DVD and TAG processor to perform a direct comparison . Pretty sure I've equalled it if not surpassed it .

Thanks PhilCTTE

I should be borrowing one for a home demo this weekend so we'll see I guess

 

[MI55ION]

Sorry for any misunderstanding, we never intended a trade-in offer, rather an update service - we rebuild your existing CD / CDQ.

You basically get a new unit apart from a few chassis items, RC handset and packaging - covered by a 3 year warrentee.

No idea on costs yet but the full CD rebuild is targeted under GBP350 - CDQ around GBP450.

John

Thanks for clarifying John.

As a long time admirer of your work I have every confidence that you will bring something quite special to the CD/CDQ as you have done with the MDac.

Just dont forget us poor CDQ owners eh?

 

[frevo]

MI55ION

Our pending "upgrade" for 8200CD / CDQ owners is really a COMPLETE new product accept some chassis parts / packaging etc.

There are some advantages to upgrading a unit, rather then a completely new unit.

6. Cheaper for the owner then buying a new unit

That sounds great.

If you're planning to buy a CDQ: Since this the upgrade isn't cheap, but this also sounds like the price will increase, would it make more sense to wait or is the difference reasonably low to justify a purchase now?

I PMed a similar question, just delete it.

 

[RotelMan]

Sorry for any misunderstanding, we never intended a trade-in offer, rather an update service - we rebuild your existing CD / CDQ.

You basically get a new unit apart from a few chassis items, RC handset and packaging - covered by a 3 year warrentee.

No idea on costs yet but the full CD rebuild is targeted under GBP350 - CDQ around GBP450.

John

Hi John

Just super nice to have a product with an upgrade path !
I'm still loving my CDQ 8200 and it's still keeping up with my other upgrades
But is there a waiting list or email list I can write me on?

BR Kurt

 

[scubaboy]

Hi all, flac or wav? any difference in the quality of playback through the mdac?
kr steven.

 

[ChrisPa]

Hi all, flac or wav? any difference in the quality of playback through the mdac?
kr steven.

why should there be any difference between flac and wav?

 

[Interzone]

That would only depend on the decoding of your computer/streamer though I imagine it's identical.

 

[scubaboy]

I don't know, that's why i asked. I'm in the process of researching the first basic steps(cd ripping) of getting on the computer audio playback train. There seems to be two main options flac and wav. I'm curious if the differences are only a) the options available through certain programs or b) is there a sound signature difference to the files which can be highlighted by equipment used to playback audio or c) compatibility/incompatibility issues? Just a simple question from a simple mind.

kr steven.

 

[sq225917]

no difference unless the source for the files decodes them in such different ways as to affect the quality of the datastream.

 

[travelfotografe]

Hi John,

Makes me want the CD/CDQ upgrade even though I do not own one!

Is the dual mono DACs upgrade for the CD/CDQ the key ingredient to leapfrog the MDAC's SQ. Please consider the possibility of future hardware upgrades to the MDAC after you are done with the CD/CDQ upgrades ;-)

Enjoying my MDAC immensely and looking forward to the upcoming firmware update,
Leon

The MDAC currently leap-frogs the CD/CDQ in features and SQ, the plan with CD/CDQ upgrade is to correct this, and leapfrog the MDAC see a never ending cycle here?

That's why I'm telling CD/CDQ owners just to hold-on as the upgrades will be cheaper then buying a new MDAC