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Looking for a pre that is better than Naim NAC52

I too changed from NAC 52 to Teddy PR1 and found it to be a good move. Sounded great with 135s. Don't miss the recapping costs!
 
James Evans said:
Have Dynavector been mentioned yet? I have no direct experience but they seem to get mentioned in the context of naim systems, and there's both L200 and L300 pres for sale in the classifieds here at the moment (no connection).
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A Naim preamp tends to work well in an all Naim system! In general, the L200 is not an upgrade on a 52 whereas an L300 is. The Michell Orca is the best preamp I've owned but it's not 'meaty' and good luck finding one.
 
Here's a suggestion for meatier presentation and a better soundstage: Put Avondale NCC200s in the 135's. It will deliver.
 
Naim2 said:
Hi All, sorry for the slow reply

So my system is as follows CDS2/NAC52/Supercap/135 with all standard cabling Naca5 , Lavender .

I really like the sound but would like to have a more "meaty" presentation and better soundstaging/imaging. The speaker is SBL but with non stock xover.

So i am building a 2nd system and looking for a pre outside naim range that you know sounds better than an NAC52. Source would be CDS2.

I welcome all suggestions.

Many thanks

David
Click to expand...

To be honest I don't really think your 52 is the limiting factor here. Soundstage will always have an element of compromise when the speakers use boundary reinforcement to augment the bass - the 52 certainly does better image localisation and depth than the SBL is able to convey (I'm not anti SBL's by any means). When changing pre-amps in a system such as yours there is the very real danger than in doing so you throw the baby out with the bathwater and I certainly think that is the case with many of the suggestions that have been made.
 
Mike Reed said:
SBLs are not 'imaging' speakers (back to wall speakers seldom are); come to that, this is not one of Naim's strengths anyway. You have a typical full-blooded Naim system, and i.m.o., if you want an entirely different presentation you'll need to replace all; you may be lucky in finding a pre. which actually builds upon the 52 within your system, but rather you than me.


I think your search for alternative pre. suggestions may be a little simplistic to achieve what you have in mind.
Click to expand...


Great minds.......!:D Anyway, this advice definitely holds water, I feel.
 
Thank you all for contributing to the thread, I really enjoy all your comments and questions.

To be honest, I did not think to much when I raised the question : what pre is better than NAC52 (other than NAC552) :)

But then some of you ask very good questions.

So a few more pointers:

I really like the current system CDS2/52 – POTS8/SC/135/SBL+ all standard cabling. The only mild qualms I have for this system are: slightly meatier presentation will be better, rather small wall of sound, and needs volume to sound very very very good. I am taking this system as my reference. No plan to sell or change.

Besides these minor issues, all this years a question remain in my mind: can I build another system totally outside Naim that can compete with full blooded Naim system as above with (not in particular order):

1. Better soundstage
2. More natural sound (if that is possible) and more "body"
3. Fuller sound at low volume
4. Same level of PRAT but slightly reduction is acceptable
5. Ability to convey emotion must be at least equal to NAC52.
6. More detail and transparency is a plus
7. At least equal musicality and listening enjoyment


Mike Reed’s comment about my approach is rather simplistic is I think correct. :) As with YNWOAN question “better in what way?. We need more details about the system in my mind

So more pointers and boundaries:
a. The starting point is the Preamp (by choice) hence the question: “Looking for a Pre that is better than NAC52”
b. Preamp can be solid state, tube, or hybrid.
c. Source is 95% CD/ Digital
d. Starting CD Player: Naim CDS2
e. Budget for Preamp is up to GBP6000 new or used BUT if we can achieve with less budget why not, the more cost effective the better and I like buying used item (all my current main system is used).
f. Cabling: No uber expensive cable , at this moment not the focus of the thread but recommendation welcome.

@MJS – I will look closely to your advice about upgrading PS and cabling (but that is another topic )

So far I have compiled the recommendation as follows:

Pre amps:
1. Music First Classic Copper TVC
2.Baby Reference
3. Dynavector L300
4. TEAD Vibe
5. Aurorasound Preda
6. Accuphase C3850
7. Classe CP500
8. Accuphase C2400
9. Pass Labs B1 buffer
10. Teddy Pardo PR1
11. Electrocompaniet – which model?
12. Pass Labs XP20

Non preamps (as a side note):
NAD M3
NCC200 amp
Teddy Pardo ia 80

Really appreciate your comment, inputs and questions. Many thanks

David
 
@ Mike Reed,

Could you describe main differences between NAP135 and your EAR monoblocks in your system?

Thanks
 
You may well find it worthwhile and surprising to give the Rega Isis + Osiris combo a listen.

I was very surprised by how well it compares with my Naim 555/552/500, especially in many of the areas of your desiderata.

Mike
 
All preamps should be audibly transparent, unless the manufacturer tailors their response.
Unless use choose something with valves , which will sound different there will be very little if any difference.
If you want large improvements in sound quality, consider loudspeakers and their interaction with your room.
Keith.
Is your source totally digital, if it is then you may not need a preamp at all.
 
Kit downtream of OP's preamp is not secular so looking for a pre from a different church is not likely to be the answer.

Having heard a 52 feeding a much superior sounding amp than 135s thoroughly convinced me that the 52 is not the bottleneck.
 
Naim2 said:
Hi All,

I am looking for a better pre amp than an Naim NAC52 (tube or solid state)Please let me know your suggestions (other than nac552).


Many thanks

David
Click to expand...



A mate replaced his NAC52 with a Passive Pre. Said it was better & trousered a chunk of change.
 
There's one obvious answer here, given as how you basically like what your current system does. Get another pair of 135s, SNAXO and power supply, and go active. It'll give you everything you desire and then some.
 
strummer said:
A mate replaced his NAC52 with a Passive Pre. Said it was better & trousered a chunk of change.
Click to expand...

Indeed - my love affair with Naim ended after possibly 30 years when I sent my NAC82 away for a service... It took a long time, cost a ridiculous amount of money (relative to my NAP250 service about two years before) and all they had actually done is change the tants, that I had done myself a couple of years previously anyway (though I'd only done the ones in the signal paths I used...). In the mean time, I lashed together a passive pot out of bits in the garage, and when the NAC82 finally came home, it didn't sound as good as the passive pot, despite Naim's dire warnings about setting the operating parameters for the power amp via the pre-amp etc.
If you can simplify your system in any way, it can only be a good thing - no component can add quality.
 
Naim2 said:
@ Mike Reed,

Could you describe main differences between NAP135 and your EAR monoblocks in your system?

Thanks
Click to expand...

This is the second attempt; there's a rogue key on my keyboard which destroys posts and returns to desk-top. I took 6 months of to-ing and fro-ing between the 2 sets before I was convinced. My wife, with younger and better ears than me, immediately took to the valves (then into massive ProAcs).

The 135s are drier in presentation (a la Naim), but with crisper bass. The 509s weren't really performing well at the time, but they nonetheless gave a more rounded, natural yet full-blooded presentation, with v. good bass, albeit fuller. The 509s were also a little better in ambience/imaging/holography, leading to a more musical and involving experience.

As already said, I'm not sure why you're stuck on the pre. when you could go straight to a power amp with pots. An alternative would be a good integrated. Overall, however, I think you should go for something entirely different to what you have and go push-pull valve. Some nice ProAcs or similarly well-imaging speakers would give you an entirely different perspective (and even on your current system if you have the space behind)

Furthermore, s/s CDPs do sound better and more organic into valved amplification, in my limited experience.

Suffolk Tony says to go active, but you want a parallel system; anyway, your SBLs are the limiting factor in your main system if you value holography etc.

I much prefer to have a manufacturer within reasonable reach (like E.A.R.), and you could do worse than to pick up a pre. (the one below the 912) used and go from there; or, as aforesaid, an E.A.R. integrated.

It's obviously nice to have two suitably sized rooms in which to set up alternative systems. However, you only have one pair of ears, which may well form a preference after a while.........:)
 
Naim2 said:
Thank you all for contributing to the thread, I really enjoy all your comments and questions.

To be honest, I did not think to much when I raised the question : what pre is better than NAC52 (other than NAC552) :)

But then some of you ask very good questions.

So a few more pointers:

I really like the current system CDS2/52 – POTS8/SC/135/SBL+ all standard cabling. The only mild qualms I have for this system are: slightly meatier presentation will be better, rather small wall of sound, and needs volume to sound very very very good. I am taking this system as my reference. No plan to sell or change.

Besides these minor issues, all this years a question remain in my mind: can I build another system totally outside Naim that can compete with full blooded Naim system as above with (not in particular order):

1. Better soundstage
2. More natural sound (if that is possible) and more "body"
3. Fuller sound at low volume
4. Same level of PRAT but slightly reduction is acceptable
5. Ability to convey emotion must be at least equal to NAC52.
6. More detail and transparency is a plus
7. At least equal musicality and listening enjoyment


Mike Reed’s comment about my approach is rather simplistic is I think correct. :) As with YNWOAN question “better in what way?. We need more details about the system in my mind

So more pointers and boundaries:
a. The starting point is the Preamp (by choice) hence the question: “Looking for a Pre that is better than NAC52”
b. Preamp can be solid state, tube, or hybrid.
c. Source is 95% CD/ Digital
d. Starting CD Player: Naim CDS2
e. Budget for Preamp is up to GBP6000 new or used BUT if we can achieve with less budget why not, the more cost effective the better and I like buying used item (all my current main system is used).
f. Cabling: No uber expensive cable , at this moment not the focus of the thread but recommendation welcome.

@MJS – I will look closely to your advice about upgrading PS and cabling (but that is another topic )

So far I have compiled the recommendation as follows:

Pre amps:
1. Music First Classic Copper TVC
2.Baby Reference
3. Dynavector L300
4. TEAD Vibe
5. Aurorasound Preda
6. Accuphase C3850
7. Classe CP500
8. Accuphase C2400
9. Pass Labs B1 buffer
10. Teddy Pardo PR1
11. Electrocompaniet – which model?
12. Pass Labs XP20

Non preamps (as a side note):
NAD M3
NCC200 amp
Teddy Pardo ia 80

Really appreciate your comment, inputs and questions. Many thanks

David
Click to expand...

Hi I think you should consider Lejonklou Sagatun. Available both in stereo AND monoversions. Prices around GBP 2800 / 5600GBP

http://www.lejonklou.com/products/sagatun-mono/
 
Mike Reed said:
This is the second attempt; there's a rogue key on my keyboard which destroys posts and returns to desk-top. I took 6 months of to-ing and fro-ing between the 2 sets before I was convinced. My wife, with younger and better ears than me, immediately took to the valves (then into massive ProAcs).

The 135s are drier in presentation (a la Naim), but with crisper bass. The 509s weren't really performing well at the time, but they nonetheless gave a more rounded, natural yet full-blooded presentation, with v. good bass, albeit fuller. The 509s were also a little better in ambience/imaging/holography, leading to a more musical and involving experience.

As already said, I'm not sure why you're stuck on the pre. when you could go straight to a power amp with pots. An alternative would be a good integrated. Overall, however, I think you should go for something entirely different to what you have and go push-pull valve. Some nice ProAcs or similarly well-imaging speakers would give you an entirely different perspective (and even on your current system if you have the space behind)

Furthermore, s/s CDPs do sound better and more organic into valved amplification, in my limited experience.

Suffolk Tony says to go active, but you want a parallel system; anyway, your SBLs are the limiting factor in your main system if you value holography etc.

I much prefer to have a manufacturer within reasonable reach (like E.A.R.), and you could do worse than to pick up a pre. (the one below the 912) used and go from there; or, as aforesaid, an E.A.R. integrated.

It's obviously nice to have two suitably sized rooms in which to set up alternative systems. However, you only have one pair of ears, which may well form a preference after a while.........:)
Click to expand...

I also made the move from a serviced CB Nap250 to EAR 890 as my ML Summits would keep tripping the current protection circuit of the Naim.
The result - better, deeper bass, overall improvement in clarity, no loss of rhythmic ability, and a remarkably similar overall sound. I also got an amp that is cheap to service - from a company with excellent customer service. They even talked me through doing my own minor repair when a failed valve damaged a resistor. If you are looking for "valve sound" look elsewhere - but if you want an excellent power amp that happens to use valves, I couldn't recommend it highly enough.
 
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