Linn LP12s – Fire away!

[Toaster]

Apart from the Analogue Innovations Insoles, the Italian company Audio Silente sell replacement 'mushrooms' for the Thorens TD124 which can be used with the TD150 and '160 series, and also the Linn LP12, with the addition of suitable washers and nuts. Because they're intended for the '124, they usually sell in packs of four. The Swedish company LinnArts sell convenient sets of three with nuts and washers supplied, but naturally at a somewhat higher price per mushroom than direct from Audio Silente.

 

[Paul Hindle]

When I moved from Valhalla to Lingo 1 what hit me was the improvement in sound stage. Wider and deeper. That is what sticks in my mind. I could never go back after that. I think I might have noticed any detriment to musicality, mid or high range but I definitely didn’t. Bass performance got a lot tighter, think the kick of the Bass drum on something like the Wall. When I got the Lingo 1 serviced by Class A the improvement was not that apparent but just felt better. The LP12 that got me into all this crazyness was a brand new pre Cirkus, Valhalla, Ittok, K9. It blew me away thru a Creek CAS4040 and HB1s. I wouldn’t swap my current deck for that now though. Those were the days when I was impressed by hifi rather than musical performance.

 

[NickofWimbledon]

When I moved from Valhalla to Lingo 1 what hit me was the improvement in sound stage. Wider and deeper. That is what sticks in my mind. I could never go back after that. I think I might have noticed any detriment to musicality, mid or high range but I definitely didn’t. Bass performance got a lot tighter, think the kick of the Bass drum on something like the Wall. When I got the Lingo 1 serviced by Class A the improvement was not that apparent but just felt better. The LP12 that got me into all this crazyness was a brand new pre Cirkus, Valhalla, Ittok, K9. It blew me away thru a Creek CAS4040 and HB1s. I wouldn’t swap my current deck for that now though. Those were the days when I was impressed by hifi rather than musical performance.

I too started with LP12 (Cirkus, Basik+, K9 in my case), plus Creek 4040 and HB1s: a classic combination.

 

[Mr Pig]

I too started with LP12 (Cirkus, Basik+, K9 in my case), plus Creek 4040 and HB1s: a classic combination.

HB1s are great speakers. I was using them in my shed system. Currently using Saras but I'm not sure that I prefer them.

 

[Paul Hindle]

Grace Jones, Don’t Cry - It’s only the Rhythm, was the track that did it for me in my mates flat. Mk1 CAS4040 at v.high volume. HB1s on dedicated stands on a concrete floor. I wouldn’t have wanted to be one of his neighbours.

 

[david ellwood]

Slave to the rhythm is definitely barik music, that and Aliens ate my Buick.

 

[NickofWimbledon]

Slave to the rhythm is definitely barik music, that and Aliens ate my Buick.

That prompts a wider question. If you were picking one well-known LP to show a nonbeliever why you have an LP12, what would it be? Also, any reverse candidates that sound good on other TTs but not on an LP12?

 

[NickofWimbledon]

A much more general question.

I have Kore, Ekos, L4, Karousel and Krystal feeding a Superline. I now also have the SRM base (modest but definite improvement on a wall shelf). Next year, I'll need to replace the Krystal, which has done heroically to be sounding good after what must be 1500 hours+.

I could get a new Krystal, but (as suggested on another thread) will be prepared to spend a bit more if I can hear an actual uplift (not just a difference in presentation). As well as the Kendo that almost no-one has heard, that brings in a couple more Lyra and Dynavector choices, but it still sounds simple - just have a listen to perhaps 4 cartridges.

Unfortunately, reading here and on the Naim site suggests another option or two.

I could swap Kore for Theo Stack's Alto sub-chassis for little net cost , or the Soprano version for rather more (but still vastly less than a Keel).

Or I could get a new top plate - Stack make a sensible-looking Alto option, but I think few have heard it. However, Khan and Karmen options seem very well regarded - few if any seem to have heard them and not thought them a big improvement, and I note the Swain view that both work better than current standard and that the Karmen's extra price looks about right for SQ per £.

So, do I (a) change just the cartridge to a sharply better one, or (b) spend a bit less on the cartridge but also swap sub-chassis, or (c) stick to the same level of cartridge I have now and go for a specialist top-plate?

If anyone does recommend that Stack top plate, is there any reason why I would particularly benefit from also having their sub-chassis, or can I treat the 2 questions as separate?

'Source-first' would suggest spending the money before the cartridge, but only of course if those third party upgrades are real...

If it works better, I won't mind having a Frankendeck, as I don't care about its eBay value.

 

[MVV]

That prompts a wider question. If you were picking one well-known LP to show a nonbeliever why you have an LP12, what would it be? Also, any reverse candidates that sound good on other TTs but not on an LP12?

Such an LP12 question.

 

[Charlie_1]

That prompts a wider question. If you were picking one well-known LP to show a nonbeliever why you have an LP12, what would it be? Also, any reverse candidates that sound good on other TTs but not on an LP12?

I think it depends on the era and spec of LP12 and the system as a whole. Pretty much any change I make to a system can shift something like this around.

Having said that, Rickie Lee Jones debut always sounds good on any system to me. Just a lovely analogue recording and a fine album too.

 

[Paul Hindle]

A much more general question.

I have Kore, Ekos, L4, Karousel and Krystal feeding a Superline. I now also have the SRM base (modest but definite improvement on a wall shelf). Next year, I'll need to replace the Krystal, which has done heroically to be sounding good after what must be 1500 hours+.

I could get a new Krystal, but (as suggested on another thread) will be prepared to spend a bit more if I can hear an actual uplift (not just a difference in presentation). As well as the Kendo that almost no-one has heard, that brings in a couple more Lyra and Dynavector choices, but it still sounds simple - just have a listen to perhaps 4 cartridges.

Unfortunately, reading here and on the Naim site suggests another option or two.

I could swap Kore for Theo Stack's Alto sub-chassis for little net cost , or the Soprano version for rather more (but still vastly less than a Keel).

Or I could get a new top plate - Stack make a sensible-looking Alto option, but I think few have heard it. However, Khan and Karmen options seem very well regarded - few if any seem to have heard them and not thought them a big improvement, and I note the Swain view that both work better than current standard and that the Karmen's extra price looks about right for SQ per £.

So, do I (a) change just the cartridge to a sharply better one, or (b) spend a bit less on the cartridge but also swap sub-chassis, or (c) stick to the same level of cartridge I have now and go for a specialist top-plate?

If anyone does recommend that Stack top plate, is there any reason why I would particularly benefit from also having their sub-chassis, or can I treat the 2 questions as separate?

'Source-first' would suggest spending the money before the cartridge, but only of course if those third party upgrades are real...

If it works better, I won't mind having a Frankendeck, as I don't care about its eBay value.

Hi Nick, your Krystal is probably nearing the end of its optimal life so really needs replacing as a priority but my question is what aspect of the sound are you are looking to improve? The reason I ask is that my deck is the same as yours apart from the arm and cartridge I no longer have thoughts of upgrading it. Have you ever considered moving from the 250 to 135s? If you’ve not dem’d a pair yet then it might be something worth thinking about. I had a conversation a long time ago with Darren at Class A about LP12 upgrades and his advice was to change my 250 to 135s before changing the tt. It was bigger improvement than any lp12 upgrade and with trade in very cost effective. Just a thought.

 

[John]

So, do I (a) change just the cartridge to a sharply better one, or (b) spend a bit less on the cartridge but also swap sub-chassis, or (c) stick to the same level of cartridge I have now and go for a specialist top-plate?

I wouldn’t assume all third party parts are the same and it’s very difficult to do any meaningful comparisons unless your considering the Tangerine Audio top plate which is sold at Cymbiosis. I would do “c” if the Karmen or used Khan was the top plate.

Do you work on your LP12? Replacing the top plate requires an entire strip down of the deck, it might very well sound worse when you’re done.

 

[Mr Pig]

I could get a new Krystal, but (as suggested on another thread) will be prepared to spend a bit more if I can hear an actual uplift..

Just so happened that I popped into Robert Ritchie Hi-Fi in Montrose yesterday as I was in the town anyway. They are easily the best dealer I know of, very straight talking and down to earth. Robbie is also a big LP12 fan and thinks they sound best with genuine Linn parts, he's not a fan of aftermarket stuff.

Significance? He was saying that they're selling a lot of Luxman cartridges, the LMC-5 it'll be. He says they sound fantastic. Can't vouch for them myself but I'd take Robbie's recommendation seriously. Give him a call and ask about them maybe?

I don't think I've seen a negative comment about Stack Audio parts yet. I've only fitted some Tenor parts and I've certainly been impressed. I'm going to buy an Alto sub-chassis soon and see what that does. The price and quality is great and the performance seems to be on the money too.

 

[Mr Pig]

If you were picking one well-known LP to show a nonbeliever why you have an LP12, what would it be? Also, any reverse candidates that sound good on other TTs but not on an LP12?

The Police 'Reggatta de Blanc' is a fantastic album but it takes a good system to put across just how good a band they are. There are timing subtleties, slight shifts on accents and dynamics, which an LP12 lets you hear. Nothing else I've heard does, I don't know why. The RP10 didn't and forget CD, I can't listen to this album on CD as it just doesn't sound right.

 

[John R]

Yes - thank you - those are the ones, kindly given to me by toaster, so I wasn't sure which brand. Well done to John R, they were very simple to install, they sound great, and the deck is more stable in every way. A fundamental upgrade and a bargain. Maybe the Vilchur suspension wasn't that clever after all.

It still doesn't quite match the metronomic locked-in pitch of my SL-1210, but it's 64.3% closer to competing with it and my other decks now, and I'm happier that I'm not wasting good diamonds on exquisite reproduction with third-rate pitch stability.

BTW, my power amp upgrade path was Naim -> Linn for the reasons mooted above, and then Linn -> Behringer/passive(Creek) because I couldn't hear a significant difference. I still love my Uphoriks/active 242s, but I'm always willing to be convinced there is something better.

Listening without price or brand prejudices is not easy, even on the rare occasions when you have the opportunity. I have certainly reached the conclusion that high prices are no indicator of true musicalityfulness™.

My current subchassis is the Alto with a standard cardboard arm board. A decade ago, after listening to several Klimax Sondeks I decided to cease throwing money at the old girl, and I even sold or returned my Greenstreet. My Sondek is now at a level of satisfaction that I could contemplate further upgrades if I win the lottery. Most importantly it's now a good platform for testing tonearm compatibility and a pleasure to listen to. Try John's grommets.

Glad you like Richard. In fact it was experimenting with your "Kleat" that led me to experiment with another form of isolation.

 

[david ellwood]

I’d suggest keeping the kore and adding a karmen top plate.

 

[nobeone]

The Police 'Reggatta de Blanc' is a fantastic album but it takes a good system to put across just how good a band they are. There are timing subtleties, slight shifts on accents and dynamics, which an LP12 lets you hear. Nothing else I've heard does, I don't know why. The RP10 didn't and forget CD, I can't listen to this album on CD as it just doesn't sound right.

OT: Have you tried the Abbey Road 1/2 speed master? Thoughts?

 

[NickofWimbledon]

Hi Nick, your Krystal is probably nearing the end of its optimal life so really needs replacing as a priority but my question is what aspect of the sound are you are looking to improve? The reason I ask is that my deck is the same as yours apart from the arm and cartridge I no longer have thoughts of upgrading it. Have you ever considered moving from the 250 to 135s? If you’ve not dem’d a pair yet then it might be something worth thinking about. I had a conversation a long time ago with Darren at Class A about LP12 upgrades and his advice was to change my 250 to 135s before changing the tt. It was bigger improvement than any lp12 upgrade and with trade in very cost effective. Just a thought.

The SQ was great before recent attempts to improve it (i.e. L4, Karousel, radial for mains, WH cables, the SRM kit and support experiments in the last year) and fractionally better now. The olives give me plenty of foot-tapping boogie (more so than the 282/SCDR/300 I first heard powering my B&W 804D3s) and Joan Baez, Nina Simone, Beth Gibbons and Maria Callas all sound better than I have heard them before - but I would have said all that with last year's version. Since then I have improved detail (less mush), stereo image, top-end sibilance and tight grip on bass (Bela Fleck's Cosmic Hippos, Lazy from Made in Japan or the organ on Bach's Toccata), but I didn't know that those areas would benefit from these improvements until afterwards.

My rack is a visual joy IMHO and I am pretty confident (after various trials) that in my room and on my floor 2 Fraims would cope less well (and wouldn't fit in the same space). That limits space until my 2-box CDS2 finally dies or I give up on owning a Nakamichi cassette deck (great nerd points and works beautifully but gets used about once every 5 years). Once those boxes are gone, I'll add a Core NAS (like the one I have for the Tasmanian cottage) or a decent CD transport (into the NDX2).

That would leave me space to swap 1 X 250 for 2 X 135s or 1 X 500. I assumed that the 500 was a silly idea until I saw one go for c.£5,500 on eBay (it had a scratch!), but it still probably a lot more than I need. Could I get recently serviced 135s for less than £3,000 or so? They seem unsurprisingly rare on eBay. How would you describe the benefit on a system like ours?

 

[NickofWimbledon]

Just so happened that I popped into Robert Ritchie Hi-Fi in Montrose yesterday as I was in the town anyway. They are easily the best dealer I know of, very straight talking and down to earth. Robbie is also a big LP12 fan and thinks they sound best with genuine Linn parts, he's not a fan of aftermarket stuff.

Significance? He was saying that they're selling a lot of Luxman cartridges, the LMC-5 it'll be. He says they sound fantastic. Can't vouch for them myself but I'd take Robbie's recommendation seriously. Give him a call and ask about them maybe?

I don't think I've seen a negative comment about Stack Audio parts yet. I've only fitted some Tenor parts and I've certainly been impressed. I'm going to buy an Alto sub-chassis soon and see what that does. The price and quality is great and the performance seems to be on the money too.

Thanks for this. The Luxman is a surprise but sounds worth investigating.

What sub-chassis and top plate do you have today? And, if you are considering trying the Alto sub-chassis, would you also go for the matching top plate and armboard? I could get all 3 and a cartridge upgrade for less than the cost of a new Krystal and a Karmen...

 

[Mr Pig]

Thanks for this. The Luxman is a surprise but sounds worth investigating.

I didn't even know Luxman made cartridges. If Robbie says they sound fantastic, he'll mean that they sound fantastic compared to Linn cartridges.