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Linn LP12s – Fire away!

Out of interest if a milled aluminuim third party top plate was fitted to a deck would this bring a lingo 2 or 3 closer (× % improvement) to a radikal type sound (purely based on motor noise/isolation improvements) for lot less money or would it just not cut it in this manner?

I have not tried it, but the Radikal is a more, well, radical change than earlier Lingos, e.g. the AC/DC motor change. L3 to L4 is to many of us a much bigger SQ change that L1 to L3. Some rate L4 to Radikal 1 just as highly as L3 to L4, but most (like @david ellwood above) don't. I suspect that this is very system-dependent.

Several people report great results with top plate changes, but others are just as happy with the current (not c.1990) Linn version. There have been separate threads on this here I think. Which upgrade is better VFM for you will probably depend on your exact deck as well as your preferences.
 
Interested in what those percentages are supposed to represent and whether they correlate with any other decks. Do they have any relation to speed stability? Presumably that is one of the potential reasons for upgrading a power-supply motor. Or is it an objective expert measure of musicalityfulness™? Where would a Technics and a Well Tempered deck appear on the scale? Between 0% and 5%? Or not even that high?

Many of us with Subjectivist leanings try to think in terms of how big a net improvement we perceive in overall SQ, which is tricky if no-one ever auditions all of the options in all the various ways. That means that the %s are very much subjective too an more figurative than mathematical, but they may nevertheless convey something useful.

if the perfect PS would detract 0.0% from the source sound at all and a 1973-style basic PS would detract (say) 2%, how much of that lost 2% can be got back with a better PS, all other things being unchanged on an LP12? Many of us trying to put number on our impressions for that might produce a rather more compressed range than @David ellwood but I suspect that the relative judgements of most actual LP12 PS users would not be too radically different.

A comparison with different power supplies on different turntables would presumably have too many variables to tell us anything, and i have no idea what a 'correlation' with other decks would mean. After all, whether an LP12 has Lingo 1 or Lingo 2 makes much less difference to its overall strengths and weakness than you get from swapping it to a completely different turntable.

Of course, a comparison between one complete turntable front end and another (like LP12 versus WT, Technics, Rega, Brinkmann, Michell, SME &c.) is as relevant as ever.
 
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Good point, one must consider the LP12 hierarchy when contemplating upgrades. The Khan top plate, Klamps and cross brace was a significant upgrade to my Lingo 1 deck. I’m not convinced taking that sum of money and instead spending it on a Lingo 3 would have been the same level of improvement.
It's something that just occurred to me when I saw those PSU upgrade figures thinking the top plate could well act to give similar result since it's all down to motor vibration/noise & stability.
I've no idea whether such a top plate could produce much better results than the Linn one in this area.
I'm not convinced myself value wise given that many of the top plate offerings are really expensive just like the base plate offerings, can they really improve things just because they are more rigid yet still screwed to the plinth in the same manner or is it more about sinking vibration away?

I was talking to MAX (audio exchange) just the other day about Stackaudio offerings & said most people opt for the Tiger paw & Tangerine audio upgrades as being substantially better. I thought that all very well but they are also substantially dearer!

EDIT: Note to myself, please read post before posting :D
EDIT: 5th edit this post!
 
90% is a interesting estimate to the way to audio nirvana or do you simply think that Linn can't push audio production much further by the way of it's power supplies?
 
90% is a interesting estimate to the way to audio nirvana or do you simply think that Linn can't push audio production much further by the way of it's power supplies?

The latter.

I think I know what @david ellwood meant, and am happy to be corrected if I am horribly wrong. I have no idea how what the 98% from @Beobloke for an SL-1000R means in the context of LP12 power supplies. Does it just mean that you think that the Technics is about 80% less flawed that any LP12 with a Radikal 2?
 
Valhalla 10%
Lingo 1 30%
Lingo 2 (early) 30%
Lingo 2 (later) 35%
Lingo 3 40%
Lingo 4 60%
Radikal 1 70%
Radikal 2 90%

The way I saw it..
Valhalla Baseline
Lingo 1 50% improvement.
Lingo 2 (early) Wash.
Lingo 2 (later) +5%
Lingo 3 +5%
Lingo 4 +5%
Radikal 1 +5%
Radikal 2 +5%

Over the past 50 years and at the end of the current day, one simply can't really get away from Linns basic sprung suspension LP12 architecture, it fundamentally is what it is for the most part. But considering this, Linn has come a long way -sometimes at great expense to the end user- to extract as much from this design as humanly possible & for it to slot musically into their current range of gear/business model as it's simply profitable for them to continue to do so. ...Why would Linn invest in & build a completely new clean sheet designed deck and hope to sell a few a year when they can continue to make expensive upgrade parts for potentially 10's of thousands of already existing LP12's, Linn isn't so much in the turntable/Hi-Fi business as they are in the -LP12- parts business. It's kinda like the water filter business, their main business is not selling filter bodies, it's the specific filter cartridges/inserts one buys monthly that only fit their cartridge bodies that satisfies their bottom line going forward, or why a pack of razor blades comes with a "Free Handle Included". When a dealer sells an LP12 to a customer they have potentially made a repeat "upgrade" costumer, when a dealer sells a Rega deck for example it's a potential dead end besides a belt and cartridge here and there, so what's the dealer going to push? the dealer is in business to stay in business & try to make a living afterall. In fact, I'm a little surprised that Linn doesn't market a fixed suspension $1995.00 LP12 "Kernel" -like a seed- with an extremely basic throwaway power supply, a standard LP12 wood plinth and outer platter, an inner poly platter and bring back the original inexpensive black bearing all as a price leader with the hope that customer comes back repeatedly to purchase many more filters, um, TT upgrades.
 
The way I saw it..
Valhalla Baseline
Lingo 1 50% improvement.
Lingo 2 (early) Wash.
Lingo 2 (later) +5%
Lingo 3 +5%
Lingo 4 +5%
Radikal 1 +5%
Radikal 2 +5%

Over the past 50 years and at the end of the current day, one simply can't really get away from Linns basic sprung suspension LP12 architecture, it fundamentally is what it is for the most part. But considering this, Linn has come a long way -sometimes at great expense to the end user- to extract as much from this design as humanly possible & for it to slot musically into their current range of gear/business model as it's simply profitable for them to continue to do so. ...Why would Linn invest in & build a completely new clean sheet designed deck and hope to sell a few a year when they can continue to make expensive upgrade parts for potentially 10's of thousands of already existing LP12's, Linn isn't so much in the turntable/Hi-Fi business as they are in the -LP12- parts business. It's kinda like the water filter business, their main business is not selling filter bodies, it's the specific filter cartridges/inserts one buys monthly that only fit their cartridge bodies that satisfies their bottom line going forward, or why a pack of razor blades comes with a "Free Handle Included". When a dealer sells an LP12 to a customer they have potentially made a repeat "upgrade" costumer, when a dealer sells a Rega deck for example it's a potential dead end besides a belt and cartridge here and there, so what's the dealer going to push? the dealer is in business to stay in business & try to make a living afterall. In fact, I'm a little surprised that Linn doesn't market a fixed suspension $1995.00 LP12 "Kernel" -like a seed- with an extremely basic throwaway power supply, a standard LP12 wood plinth and outer platter, an inner poly platter and bring back the original inexpensive black bearing all as a price leader with the hope that customer comes back repeatedly to purchase many more filters, um, TT upgrades.


Lots to agree with there!

Are your scores additive, with each (apart from L2) an equally sized upgrade? If I had understood, it suggests L1 to L4 is about 15%, or a bit bigger than L4 to R2 and still much smaller than Valhalla to L1. It looks as if most of that would get a lot of agreement here.

As for a baby LP12 as a gateway drug or Porsche Boxster (if you see what I mean), I am not convinced, but it would surely have been a better idea than the Linn Axis. However, Linn giving it no suspension would be as brand-distorting and implausible as (say) Porsche making a diesel 4 X 4...

I'll get my coat.
 
Lots to agree with there!

Are your scores additive, with each (apart from L2) an equally sized upgrade? If I had understood, it suggests L1 to L4 is about 15%, or a bit bigger than L4 to R2 and still much smaller than Valhalla to L1. It looks as if most of that would get a lot of agreement here.

As for a baby LP12 as a gateway drug or Porsche Boxster (if you see what I mean), I am not convinced, but it would surely have been a better idea than the Linn Axis. However, Linn giving it no suspension would be as brand-distorting and implausible as (say) Porsche making a diesel 4 X 4...

I'll get my coat.

Actually, it's really difficult for me to place a solid % improvement upon those upgrades, talk about subjective, I'd rather just comment saying any given change is either More In Tune or Less In Tune withing the context of my system/room and leave it at that. Back in the day I thought the Lingo was huge -as well as Ekos- and then all upgrades after were a little better here & there, yet some others were more out of tune -Cirkus being one- withing the context of my system, then I started to come to personal realization that Linns improvements to the LP12 seemed more about getting them to fit/work musically within the context of their newer systems going forward then in my system that I had & couldn't afford to change even if I wanted to .. Right, Linn Axis, that was a good one, not really. ...Think we sold maybe 10, if that many..

And BTW, here in the states the 4.0L GT4 -Boxter layout- took the trophy home this year at the end of season Autocross Nationals Superstock event, so I'll take that "gateway" Porsche, posting faster times than GT3's and Vette Grand Sports which had their day in past Nationals events.
 
Is the consensus that early Lingo 2s sound like a slightly better Lingo 1
I've had an L1 and L2 for the past 3-4 years and swapped boxes many times. Each has its own strengths. To my ears, the L2 is a bit cleaner sounding and more tuneful and the L1 is a bit more rhythmic and makes more sense of the music as a whole.
 
I've had an L1 and L2 for the past 3-4 years and swapped boxes many times. Each has its own strengths. To my ears, the L2 is a bit cleaner sounding and more tuneful and the L1 is a bit more rhythmic and makes more sense of the music as a whole.
Do you know if you have the later surface mount Lingo 2? I don't think I could go back on a permanent basis to my Lingo 1 if I still had it.
 
Actually, it's really difficult for me to place a solid % improvement upon those upgrades, talk about subjective, I'd rather just comment saying any given change is either More In Tune or Less In Tune within the context of my system/room and leave it at that. Back in the day I thought the Lingo was huge -as well as Ekos- and then all upgrades after were a little better here & there, yet some others were more out of tune -Cirkus being one- within the context of my system, then I started to come to personal realization that Linns improvements to the LP12 seemed more about getting them to fit/work musically within the context of their newer systems going forward then in my system that I had & couldn't afford to change even if I wanted to .. Right, Linn Axis, that was a good one, not really. ...Think we sold maybe 10, if that many..

And BTW, here in the states the 4.0L GT4 -Boxter layout- took the trophy home this year at the end of season Autocross Nationals Superstock event, so I'll take that "gateway" Porsche, posting faster times than GT3's and Vette Grand Sports which had their day in past Nationals events.


I too think we are aiming for consistent preferences and impressions here, so solid and precise maths is unavailable/ irrelevant. As the more Objectivist here may point out, ears are better at that than at maths.

Also, few can score everything. Many of us regard L1 as a big step, but far fewer have actually tried every Lingo or upgraded R1 to R2 (I haven't). With more cash and time, a good few more of us might find out if we agree with @david ellwood about the Radikal 2, for example.

I remember listening to Axis versus LP12 with my bro about 30 years ago. The (excellent) dealer had an Axis on dem largely to sell LP12s - which it did.

I should also say that I have nothing against Boxsters - it is a great car of its type, and I was so impressed driving the GTS version that I nearly bought one. However, no matter how good it is, many take the car less seriously than it merits just because it is the brother to a legend (a bit like some people's reaction to Jimmy Vaughan's guitar, if you see what I mean). In addition, lots get sold to people who want to own and be seen in a Porsche sportscar, rather than drive one, so you don't see as many at track days as you do at the gym near me where Pilates instruction is offered daily.

Also, rose-tinted memories of when we were young makes people think fondly of air-cooled 911s, as they do with 1970s Ducatis and 1960s Nortons. Trying them today in just about any context is a shock for most, as you discover just how bad they were in several respects that affect use (but not nostalgia). That does sound to me like the reaction of some to LP12s.

There is still some 70s prog-rock that still sounds a bit strange to me without the original LP12 'honk' added, because that was always how I heard that music at its best. FWIW, I also associate the sound of cars with V12s and no turbos with 'real' F1 (think Lauda or Senna) rather than the sound of cars today, even though they weren't nearly as good at doing the job.

As for the changing sound of the LP12 over the decades, I take your point. On the other hand, my olive Naim kit dates from the 90s, but works well IMHO with an LP12 that has Karousel, Kore and L4, and with NDX2/XPSDR streaming. If I owned a Naim 32 and Linn Kans from the early 80s, I might want all the golden hue and upper-bass bloom I could get, but not now. How far back was your realisation that LP12s were developing away from what you wanted?
 
Do you know if you have the later surface mount Lingo 2? I don't think I could go back on a permanent basis to my Lingo 1 if I still had it.
Yep, it's a very late one, sometime between 2006 - 2010, so not been serviced yet. The L1 was serviced by Class A a few years ago when it also had the mains filter removed so that it would play nicely with Naim amps.
 
Yep, it's a very late one, sometime between 2006 - 2010, so not been serviced yet. The L1 was serviced by Class A a few years ago when it also had the mains filter removed so that it would play nicely with Naim amps.

Have you heard an L4 on an LP12 like yours? Dealers get L4s back as people go Radikal, and you could sell L1 and L2 on eBay. It might give you a bit more vigour and boogie than the late L2 (or L3) and more detail and less background mush than any earlier options. It takes up less space too.
 
Have you heard an L4 on an LP12 like yours? Dealers get L4s back as people go Radikal, and you could sell L1 and L2 on eBay. It might give you a bit more vigour and boogie than the late L2 (or L3) and more detail and less background mush than any earlier options. It takes up less space too.
I've heard the latest power supplies at my dealers and owned a Radikal 1 for about 10 years with (then) Klimax deck. I came full circle in the end and realised that what the guys at Linn were doing up until the early 90s was more my thing. Credit to Linn though - there's a clear progression up from Valhalla to Radikal 2 and if you like what Linn have been doing the past 30 years then it just gets better and better. Whilst I do like the L1 in particular, if forced to pick one deck it would be Valhalla with an 80s bearing which is coincidentally what I'm enjoying right now! :)
 


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