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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VII

Discussion in 'off topic' started by Seeker_UK, Jun 21, 2022.

  1. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    What’s the question?
  2. Brian

    Brian Eating fat, staying slim

    I’ve just read the wiki page about this bloke and I doubt there are plenty more like him in the Labour party, I doubt there are many like him anywhere.

    You won’t like it, drood, but how about some names of people in the Labour party that are just like this bloke? Half a dozen wouldn’t be ‘plenty’ but I’d like to read about them anyway.

    As an aside, I don’t get this bit from the wiki entry..
    How and why was he allowed to join? Who makes that decision?

    Source: wiki entry
  3. Super Bigote

    Super Bigote pfm Member

    You are misunderstanding what MMT is. It is not a policy but a depiction of how the monetary economy works in an economy where the government is the sole currency issuer. The understanding of MMT has implications for policy choice but it is not the policies themselves, which may be left or right wing in nature. The point about these countries is that the political leaders and the media are, almost to a man, lying about how the monetary economy works and they are doing this for ideological reasons. They wish to show that there is no money but an understanding of MMT shows that there is no financial constraint on these governments.

    So it is an important distinction. MMT exists everywhere there is a government which is the sole currency issuer and once you recognise that then then the implications for policy choice are huge.

    ks.234, Klassik and Le Baron like this.
  4. Super Bigote

    Super Bigote pfm Member

    doctorf asked where MMT had been implemented.
  5. Kirk

    Kirk pfm Member

    MMT is a 'collection of ideas'.

    You made a good effort to misrepresent a simple Q&A and then use it to deflect into another 'conversation' about MMT. I know you and Team MMT are passionate about this subject but I will repeat what I've said before - it will never catch on. Many credible voices on the left agree, and have already rejected it. Even the Communists dislike it.

    I will leave you with a quote:

    “Speaking with MMT’s adherents is something like watching a football match with friends who insist the ball remains stationary while every other element in the game, including the pitch and goalposts, move around it.”

    PS I didn't know the cartoon was first aired in Venezuela nor that it is proxy for fighting Team America, and that it's lead is supposed to be Maduro. The Cubans will be fans no doubt.
    Spraggons Den likes this.
  6. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    Something I’ve noticed about the people complaining about all the MMT conversations is that they are the same people starting MMT conversations with stupid Gotchas. If you don’t want to talk about MMT STFU about MMT.
  7. notaclue

    notaclue pfm Member

    I only learnt of MMT yesterday with regard to PFM (after Googling). Didn't notice it on PFM before, though probably because I haven't read the forum much recently. Now I look... It's freaking everywhere. It's like somebody* got an idea as a present for their birthday and now wants to show it off to everyone. All the time.

    Now it's on the Sir Keir thread.

    All very odd. Though also quite intriguing. A mystery...

    * I think it's all one person ;)
    sideshowbob likes this.
  8. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    Not sure what your issue is. MMT is an observation that tax does not fund government spending. It is in distinction to the Thatcherite homily that tax does fund government spending.

    If you believe that tax does fund spending, please say why.
  9. Spraggons Den

    Spraggons Den pfm Member

    I got this from Gen Sec of the LP this morning:

    If you are anything like me, you will be watching the Tory Leadership race of fantasy economics unfold in front of our eyes. The contenders have made more than £200 billion worth of unfunded spending commitments. That's more than the annual budget of the NHS, splurged without a word on how it'll be paid for.

    Perhaps Sunak and Truss are MMTers.
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2022
  10. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    That is utter gibberish, but unless you are particulate ignorant, you will know that by now, so I presume your purpose is to raise the topic of MMT yet again, so you can then moan, again, about MMT being everywhere.
    Spraggons Den likes this.
  11. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    I’ve always been interested in the earliest origins of life. At what point does a bunch of chemicals become a self sustaining, replicating life form? This could be the moment where MMT crossed that threshold and became self replicating.
    sideshowbob likes this.
  12. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    Is this more sarcasm? The MMT bit I mean. Difficult to tell.

    If you mean that MMT is self repolicating, then it clearly isn’t, unless you mean the idiotic sort of posts that always bring up MMT, without any reference to the topic itself, just to make a point about it always being brought up. A bit like the one above
  13. Kirk

    Kirk pfm Member

    Like them Replicators in Stargate?
  14. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    It’s contagious!
  15. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    No, it’s a choice
  16. mandryka

    mandryka pfm Member

    This is like the original concept of a meme in The Selfish Gene. NB, when it reproduces it mutates - MMT Eve changes into Truss economics.
  17. droodzilla

    droodzilla pfm Member

    This is good from Frances Ryan:
    tl;dr: Even if using this attack line brings short-term tactical gains, it is strategically disastrous to the prospects for progressive change.

    Incidentally, this is a good illustration of why it's essential to promote better understanding of the economy in terms of MMT (or even bog-standard Keynesianism would be a huge leap forward for many).
    ks.234 likes this.
  18. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    Yes. The Magic Money Tree is a monetarist argument. It is one of the lies that underpin the monetarist dogma that there is no alternative. MMT is no more than an observation of the real world that says that there *is* an alternative. What ks more, it is not even very radical, it just says that with an appreciation of where money really comes from, there is an alternative. Monetarism is a lie that says that there is no alternative to cuts to the NHS, austerity, authoritarianism, unemployment, low wages, uncontrolled inflation, economic shocks and widespread misery.

    If people do want an alternative, perhaps they should take another look at that alternative before they dismiss it so angrily.

    If people want to stick with monetarism, then own it for what it is.

    TINA is a lie
    droodzilla likes this.
  19. droodzilla

    droodzilla pfm Member

  20. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    Yes, New Labour’s policy has always been to attract Tory donors, that is where they see their future.

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