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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VII

I‘ll wager London to a tangerine that I’m one of the few contributing here who have actually lived under a Green administration and been represented by a Green MP. I’ve said all this before, but I’ll keep banging on.

The Greens are essentially a party of middle class reformists. Their policies sound radical when compared to the established parties. In power however, they are
characterised by, at best compromise, if not outright betrayal.

Caroline Lucas was an exemplary constituency MP, lending meaningful support to, inter alia, the local anti-NHS privatization campaign and anti-fracking campaign. But as a lone voice in Parliament she could afford to be a maverick. If you want a portrait of what happens when Greens compromise with reformism, the most cursory familiarity with the trajectory of the German Green Party will provide you with a dispiriting example.

The Green led Brighton council attacked the refuse workers, did not oppose the academisation of a local school, and the Green council leader was instrumental in the closure of the only two in-patient drug and alcohol detox beds in a city that regularly tops the league table of drug deaths, insisting that the entire community drug and alcohol treatment service was tendered out to the private and third sector, against the wishes of the staff team.

Some individual Green councillors were excellent, as were certain cohorts of local activists. But at core they are no different in composition to a party like the LibDems, progressive on some issues, reactionary on others. So you elect a Green government who try to execute similar policies to those advocated by Corbyn. The vested interests of the establishment put every imaginable impediment in the way. Then what? The Greens have no answer whatsoever, neither do they have any strategy to confront and overcome those vested interests.

You can disregard all this if you wish, and continue to advocate for a Green vote. But don’t be surprised if you find that citizens of both Germany and Brighton take issue with you.
 
You can disregard all this if you wish, and continue to advocate for a Green vote. But don’t be surprised if you find that citizens of both Germany and Brighton take issue with you.

The alternative is endless FPTP and Tory/Labour neoliberalism and authoritarianism. The Greens, LDs, SNP, PC, and even far-right public school pricks like Reform all stand for systemic change. That is the first step. We can never move forwards without installing an accountable democracy, and both Conservative and Labour will fight that with everything they have.
 
We can never move forwards without installing an accountable democracy, and both Conservative and Labour will fight that with everything they have.
Agreed, but what evidence exists that electing a Green administration will install an accountable democracy? Aside from the striking examples I have provided of how Greens, when actually elected to power, behave no differently to Tory or Labour, how would the Greens be treated any differently than Corbyn, insofar as he represented a significant assault on vested interests and was destroyed before he even entered Downing Street? (Don’t allow your personal dislike of Corbyn to influence your response, any radical politician or party seeking election will face the same obstacles).

I‘m not suggesting that any challenge to the hegemony is destined to fail, only that you need an agency with the power to confront those vested interests. The Greens, both politically and through experience of prior Green administrations, have demonstrated that they are not that agency.
 
But then neither are any of the other options, whether viable or fanciful choices, so what are we to do? At some point, you have to vote for the team that is selling what you want.
 
Agreed, but what evidence exists that electing a Green administration will install an accountable democracy?

A manifesto pledge for PR.

I keep saying the same thing but the only possible way to permanently remove elite Tory rule short of violent revolution is to remove their system of gerrymandering that returns them to positions of absolute unchallenged power for >80% of the time.

We need to run fdisk and reformat. The current system is totally corrupt and needs to be removed. Anything that comes after that can be defined later. New voices will emerge once there is a fair playing field that allows true representation.
 
I keep saying the same thing but the only possible way to permanently remove elite Tory rule short of violent revolution is to remove their system of gerrymandering that returns them to positions of absolute unchallenged power for >80% of the time.
Fair enough, but I’ll keep saying short of violent revolution, the elite will not be removed, and certainly not by Parliamentary means.
 
When we decry revolutions for their violence, it is only the post revolution violence that seems to count. All the violence directed by the state downwards that went on before the revolution, and had a causal effect on creating the conditions for revolution, tend to figure less in the popular imagination. Perhaps because the violence from the elite down is an historical constant whereas the violence from the bottom up is quite rare.
 
When we decry revolutions for their violence, it is only the post revolution violence that seems to count. All the violence directed by the state downwards that went on before the revolution, and had a causal effect on creating the conditions for revolution, tend to figure less in the popular imagination. Perhaps because the violence from the elite down is an historical constant whereas the violence from the bottom up is quite rare.
The Suffragettes were not averse to a bit of arson and bombing, but who would deny, through their actions, they won women’s suffrage, rather than standing meekly by in their reserved spots designated by the James Cleverly of the day?
 
I'm not sure I understand the question. Can you expand?
Apologies, I printed off an article by Piketty that I thought you posted. Aplogies if it wasn’t you. In that article Piketty says that Neoliberalism is dead or dying and we need to think about what comes next, and his suggestion is socialism?

But Socialism in one country is Social Democracy!
 
Apologies, I printed off an article by Piketty that I thought you posted. Aplogies if it wasn’t you. In that article Piketty says that Neoliberalism is dead or dying and we need to think about what comes next, and his suggestion is socialism?

But Socialism in one country is Social Democracy!
It would be a step in a better direction.
 
Apologies, I printed off an article by Piketty that I thought you posted. Aplogies if it wasn’t you. In that article Piketty says that Neoliberalism is dead or dying and we need to think about what comes next, and his suggestion is socialism?

But Socialism in one country is Social Democracy!
I did post an interview with Piketty (link). He said that most Western countries no longer resemble the Capitalism of Marx, and could be described as social democratic. He argues that neoliberalism hasn't collapsed but has reached its limits (I presume because social democratic institutions cannot be uninvented. Income tax and some form of welfare state isn't going away, unless democracy goes with it). Piketty's argument is that therefore the old battle between liberalism, nationalism and socialism is now a two-hander between nationalism and socialism. And that - if we are to tackle climate change etc - it needs to be won by some form of new, democratic socialism that includes wealth taxation.

That's pretty much where I stand too.
 
At some point, you have to vote for the team that is selling what you want.

I appreciate that the Greens to date have had mixed results in office, but no worse than the worst of the neoliberals. They just need a lot more good people.

But the point is they are the only party sticking to a Green action agenda, and they can't go back on that. Labour can and has done. From £28 billion per year to £8 billion over the whole parliament.

If you truly have a Green agenda you won't vote Labour because they simply aren't serious and that's totally not good enough.
 
That's certainly a big part in why no meaningful action is being taken. But this is unforgivable political egoism when so much is at stake. The world desperately needs charismatic leaders that will get populations on side for change that they are going to find difficult. The alternative is knee-jerk reactions when the climate really starts getting out of control and doing nothing is more scary that losing our creature comforts.

So that cuts out Corbyn. I'm not too familiar with the Green's leadership team. Are they charismatic? The case for Green needs all the support it can get but the left either are out to lunch or in a ditch (too focussed on yesterday's debates: neoliberalism, nationalisation, and showing solidarity, etc) and the hollowed-out centre are fighting to be heard. As a species, we may be looking at an extinction event (or partial extinction event) but we can't rely solely on Greta to deliver us. If not her, then who?
 
I‘ll wager London to a tangerine that I’m one of the few contributing here who have actually lived under a Green administration and been represented by a Green MP. ..

You can disregard all this if you wish, and continue to advocate for a Green vote. But don’t be surprised if you find that citizens of both Germany and Brighton take issue with you.

Well, the Greens in Scotland have been decent companions to the SNP. And in reality CC is the BIG issue. Plus there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that the Tories or LP will change into what we need. So I'd still recommend Green.
 


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